Correct Descent Technique
| Author | Date | Message |
|---|---|---|
| Brian O'Shaughnessy | Mar 10, 10:00AM | People talk about mountain running and that it's all about the descent. So on the start of the decent from say Maulin do the best runners pick points and zig zag down the mountain or go pretty much straight down? Would be great if the site could post a few 'this is how it should be done' videos on dealing with different terrain. (BTW Thanks to Rachael and team for a very enjoyable and well organised race on the weekend) |
| Colm Hill | Mar 10, 6:06PM | Off the summit, see Brian in a heap on the ground. Check he's still alive. See Peter 350m in front. Pick where you'll place your foot in 4 strides time and go for it. Straight down. If your going to fall, increase leg turnover speed or else look for a nice muddy, softish area and fall into that, roll back onto your feet and keep going. I've developed a habbit of thinking about where i'll place my feet but not thinking about the consequences if it doesn't go to plan. I heard a rumor that what John Lenihans does is accelerate with every stride as he descends... that gets very scary when your on the edge of taking a massive spill on scree or something not so soft. I know a few orienteers who's descending ideas revolve around the concept that the less time your feet are in contact with the ground the less chance you have of breaking, spraining, damaging ankles etc. Or, the best way to increase downhill speed is to go orienteering(!) you learn to run fast in rough terrain - both up and down. Surely it can only be good for mountain running :) |
| Rene Borg | Mar 11, 3:51AM | Colm practically covers best practice if you are to believe the good folks from UK Athletics. A few practical things you can do to improve your descending skills are: 1. Improve fitness: The fresher your mind and your legs when you get off the summit the more in control you’ll feel 2. Improve balance: There’s multiple ways to go around this – dedicated balancing exercises (walking on a narrow beam, standing on one leg with your eyes closed, wobble boards etc.), increasing your core strength (a topic in itself), and increasing your leg strength (see below) 3. Improve strength: A strong lower body will “wobble” less. Again a topic in itself, but once you are properly conditioned one-legged plyometrics are great at stimulating the exact stress loading of downhill running. As Lydiard said a runner needs the strength of a ballet dancer not a weight lifter. 4. Increase leg speed: Basically “quick feet”, many team players have this come naturally but there’s endless way to practice this from doing lots of technical descending to performing exercises with cones and small hurdles. Plyometrics also have proven to improve your ability to get your feet off the ground quicker. The feeling of being "out of control" is basically because your brain can't handle the amount of input required for the speed you run at. But this is a trainable skill. When I started running 18kph probably felt like 20kph per hour and viceversa. As you get faster everything feels slower. 5. Increase coordination: This also helps with balance, but being able to move quickly without your form disintegrating or “weird” movements sneaking into your running will decrease chances of you inadvertently doing something you didn’t intend to do. The leg speed exercises help this and so do other running drills that require you to follow a set pattern of movement you aren’t used to (the UKA guys loved the hop-scotch, can’t say I do, but it gets the point across!) 6. Taping: Taping up your ankles with the correct technique will increase your proprioception (in this sense basically where your feet are in relation to your body) and make your ankles a more solid platform (especially if you are lacking in ankle strength) 7. Technique: A bigger topic and there’s probably more debate on this one. Common guidelines include keeping your feet below your centre of gravity rather in front, not bending forward or backwards from the hip (but staying straight), and as Colm says look about 10 feet ahead rather than straight down. Kevin Shevels published a nice book called Downhill Techniques for Off-Road Runners which is available on TrailGuides.co.uk. The above is before going into the mental aspect, which undoubtedly is a huge factor, but work on the above an you should start to feel more confident which is a good start. Anecdotally, I find it helpful to jump straight up into the air one or multiple times if I feel I get out of control on steep descents as this doesn’t break momentum but transfers some of the force into the vertical movement and gives you a few milliseconds extra to pick your next landing spot. |
| Alan Ayling | Mar 11, 5:59PM | Rene you're really wearing out that keyboard! Come on an EPIC mtb spin sometime and you'll learn the one thing you need to know about descending: "Let go of the bleedin' brakes!". Exactly the same applies to mountain running. Practice on that steep descent in Trooperstown, in no time you'll either be deadly or dead! |
| Alan Ayling | Mar 11, 5:59PM | Rene you're really wearing out that keyboard! Come on an EPIC mtb spin sometime and you'll learn the one thing you need to know about descending: "Let go of the bleedin' brakes!". Exactly the same applies to mountain running. Practice on that steep descent in Trooperstown, in no time you'll either be deadly or dead! |
| Paul Nolan | Mar 11, 9:13PM | Brian This might sound a bit weird but when I was lashing down hillsides I used to imagine being suspended by wires attached at hip level that took my weight, allowing me to glide down the hill using my feet for steering rather then carrying weight. My torso was the object that needed to be move smoothly down the hill, legs and arms just balanced and guided it. Think of a car on a rough road, the suspension (legs) is working furiously but the body (torso) is smoothly covering the road. Each push off is an opportunity to apply an acceleration force or direction change. If each foot fall is light and fast you simply skip to the other foot when you land on something that gives or is uneven. Time spent in the air is time you can't trip on something. If the angle is shallow lean forward, let your torso pull you down the hill. If it's steep, sit back, let your legs lead. Never on a rocky descent allow your head to get in front of your knees. Strong quads help greatly and handily can be conditioned by running up hill. No matter what the runner in front of you is doing, you have to set yourself the task of doing it quicker to get past them. That's in your head, it comes with practice. My motto as a youngster - 'if you don't fall every now and then you're not trying hard enough' put me in A&E twice. Later I knew the most important was to be in control, lying in a heap on the ground does nothing for your speed. Don't forget to Enjoy It. |
| Colm Hill | Mar 11, 9:38PM | What would people consider to be the most technical descent (or race) on the calender? |
| Eoin Keith | Mar 11, 10:02PM | The master has spoken! Paul is one of the best descenders I've had the pleasure of watching pull away from me. I'd treat his advice with reverence! Colm, for sustained technical descending I think the standout race is Croagh Patrick. |
| Rene Borg | Mar 12, 1:07AM | Alan - Its amazing what time you can find when you're sleepless in a Singapore hotel room after a long day's work! Tried MTB, fell four times, was told I was doing well but gave it up immediately as I found the bruises affected my running. Hill running bruises are ok, MTB bruises, unacceptable! I do run the Trooperstown descent regularly but given I've had lower leg injuries almost constantly since October and was only recovering from previous lower leg injuries in the year before I don't actually spend too much time thinking or training downhills (that's for later in my mind). I don't agree wholeheartedly with the notion that races are won on the downhill. They can be, bu I'd fancy gaining much more from uphills personally and after all even Ian Holmes can be put out of sight by runners of his class (like recently at Snowdon) even when he's descending very well. Paul - Amazing reply! |
| Justin Rea | Mar 12, 10:09AM | Some real pearls being dropped here. Nice thread! One thing I've noticed when descending a moderate slope is a pretty obvious one: The straight line is a lot faster. You can often find yourself passing runners that are picking a flatter but more circuitous line whereas you concentrate on going over obstacles and going straight down. You also lose less energy by avoiding going sideways. The main adaption you have is by moving up and down, and by varying the length of your stride. Toughest descents: On rock - Croagh Patrick. On grass - Ben Gorm :-). Sustained - Galtymore, or Carrauntoohil |
| Jonathan McCloy | Mar 12, 11:27AM | Great Stuff! Downhill is my favourite part of a race by far! I know a few savage downhillers. One in specific applies Pauls suspension theory to the max and he is definitely the fastest downhiller I know, I always describe it as a controlled fall... for a couple of miles! But that's not to say it's the fastest all the time, for sure, using a track running style on open, not so rough ground can create serious speed. I don't know if there is one in the IMRA calender, but BARF are organising a downhill race from the top of Donard later in the year. It was great craic last year! It would be interesting to see some serious speed coming down the black stairs! |
| Jason Kehoe | Mar 12, 12:36PM | Toughest Downhill for me so far is Croagh Patrick, super quick feet, agility and iron nerves to really try and accelerate. From the summit its a matter of jumping down onto a piece of loose slate, surfing it down hill 2 or 3 feet before jumping to the next piece...repeat. The last section is so treacherous with small and large jagged rocks sticking out of the ground at all angles, and that doesnt take into account the walkers you need to be so mindful of, had a nice spill here and the scar to show it. Coming off Caher mountain in the Carrauntoohil race is also very intense as it's so steep that you should prob zig zag to some extent to maintain some sort of 'control' on this long descent on scree! Camarahill downhill on the Lugnaquilla race is also very tough on the quads and core and plenty of places to be made up here for the brave in a race. Would love to try the grassy Ben Gorm but the Guinness after the Croagh Patrick race says otherwise... Would really agree with Paul on "set yourself the task of doing it quicker to get past them." This is obviously always the case in a race but its a mental and confidence thing downhill. It's usually hard to pass the person in front as they should be taking the optimal route down so its a case of you either passing when the track opens up a bit or going even more 'offroad' to overtake. It's also quite demoralising for your competitor as there is only so fast they can go downhill because of their technical ability/confidence. E.g. if you pass someone going uphill the other person can work harder to try and hold you back or stay with you, but going downhill they are moving, generally, as fast as their fear of falling will allow them. Remember they are probably as fit as you as your both at that section at the same time. So you need to mentaly be more confident. Make sense?!?! Just remember if you break both your legs on the downhill after this advice don't come running back to blame me! ;) j. |
| Colm Hill | Mar 12, 1:11PM | Camarahill is pretty steep... Its great fun when its slippery. I've been asking around a few other orienteers ect and the two words that keep coming up are guts and fear. Less fear, more guts, higher finish placing. |
| Paul Nolan | Mar 12, 2:46PM | Mayo & the Mournes are were the hard hills lie. Croagh Patrick, Ben Gorm and the original straight up/down Nephin route are all demanding descents. Slieve Bearnagh in the Mournes is prehaps the greatest test of descending bravery I've faced. Now to expand the scope of this thread, who are the fastest descenders you've ever seen? My choices would be Francis Cosgrave & Joan Flanagan. Joan a picture of focused control, Francis a fearless disaster that somehow made it to the bottom intact. |
| Bruce Shenker | Mar 12, 3:16PM | Francis was so far ahead of me I would have never seen him, but I second Paul's notion on Joan, about 80 % of the up-down races in the 2000's I would have a substantial lead on her going up only to hear her steady footfall creeping up on me, surely to pass me on the final descent. |
| Brian O'Shaughnessy | Mar 12, 3:47PM | Thanks Paul and the rest. I need to reread that advice a couple of times!Funny the only mountain runner I know (i've only run two races) was Joan Flanagan I use to work with her in Arklow . I'm doing the WAR race in April so hopefully this will help. |
| Eva Fairmaner | Mar 12, 4:30PM | Joan Flanagan, to me is without doubt the best female downhill runner I have ever seen, truly awesome and never seemed to fall. I remember Carrauntoohil 2001 and the subsequent results/race report and these two comments... "...the greatest reeling in was done by F40 Joan Flanagan who improved her position by 11 places on the descent" "but I have to take my hat off to Joan Flanagan - 10th fastest descent!! There was also a certain Fairmaner fella who, in that race finished second to John Lenihan but was over a minute faster downhill - now I am not biased..... |
| Jason Kehoe | Mar 12, 4:32PM | Not sure if this will turn out properly on the message board but here was the top ten descenders by descent time from the Lugnaquilla race in 2009. I remember Will passed 20 people on the way down from the top! But look at Bernards time! Legend!! finish ascent descent time time time Bernard Fortune 00:56:51 00:38:56 00:17:55 Leo Murray 00:59:40 00:41:02 00:18:38 Peter O'Farrell 00:53:48 00:35:04 00:18:44 Richard Healy 00:58:01 00:39:03 00:18:58 Stephen Cleary 00:59:25 00:40:25 00:19:00 William Powderly 01:06:34 00:47:12 00:19:22 Martin Francis 01:03:10 00:43:21 00:19:49 John Lenihan 00:55:24 00:35:26 00:19:58 Jason Kehoe 00:59:51 00:39:49 00:20:02 Hugh Kinsella 01:00:12 00:40:08 00:20:04 It was very well done by the statistician on boards.ie: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055455994&highlight=imra+thread&page=43 Pity we cant always have such great stats to compare all races. |
| Rene Borg | Mar 14, 8:30AM | While speaking of great descenders from the ranks of IMRA, I think John Brooks should be mentioned. Winner of the Ben Nevis race (not an easy descent as I think Cormac and Niamh will attest) and, to my understanding, possibly the fastest descender on Croagh Patrick (though I don't remember the time). -Rene |
| Peter O'Farrell | Mar 15, 11:14AM | In one of the races of the past 10 years on Irish soil John and John, Lenihan and Brooks, descended in 16.48 and 17.20 respectively to finish Lugnaquille (2004) in 49.31 and 49.54. Alan McKibbin descended in 17.00 the same day. Gerry Healy destroyed the field and himself to top out on the ascent 50 seconds ahead in 31.44 but cruised back down to finish 12th. John Brooks descent time off Croagh Patrick was about 13 minutes the day he broke the record to finish in 42 minutes. Eoghan McKenna is an unbelievable descender and the mighty Joan "the bird" Flanagan has been rightly lauded earlier in the thread. |
