Irish Mountain
Running Association

World Trophy: Crans Montana, Switzerland

Forum Messages

AuthorDateMessage
gerry bradyJul 29 2008, 8:08pmBarry Minnock has been pre-selected for the six person senior men's team
for the World Trophy on the basis of his performances this season on
mountains, cross-country and road. The pre-selection is designed to allow
him to take a complete break from training and racing, after a long season,
so that he races well in the World Trophy.
gerry bradyAug 19 2008, 10:25pm
The following athletes have been selected to represent Ireland in the 2008 World Trophy.

Senior women
Edel Mooney (Lothian)
Donna Mahon (Rathfarnham)
Mags Greenan (Clonliffe)
Orla Ni Mhuircheartaigh (Galway City Harriers)
Reserve: Aoife Joyce (Crusaders)

Senior men
Mark Ryan (Rathfarnham)
Brian McMahon (Clonliffe)
Sean Hehir (Rathfarnham)
Michael Kelly (Gowran)
Tom Hogan (Slaneyside)
Barry Minnock (Rathfarnham)
Reserve: Peter O?Farrell (Rathfarnham)

Junior women
Michelle Finn (Duhallow)
Eimear Tangney (Spa Muckross)
Gayle Finn (Duhallow)
Reserve: Breda McDonald (North Laois)

Junior men
Eoin Rowan (North Sligo)
Emmet Jennings (DSD)
Kian Jennings (DSD)
Michael Dowling (West Wicklow)

Managers
John O?Connell, Aisling Coppinger, Gerry Brady
Eoin KeithAug 19 2008, 11:31pmThat list makes for depressing reading. I hope that IMRA will not be funding alpine holidays for runners who only took part in the trial race and have not participated in any capacity in the normal activities of the organisation, whether running in our leagues/championships, or volunteering to help the organisation.

Just looking at the list of senior runners, and doing a quick cross-check with online information :

Mark Ryan : Only ran the trial race
Brain McMahon : Only ran the trial race
Sean Hehir : Only ran the trial race
Edel Mooney : Only ran the trial race

I think that Barry (preselected), Peter (reserve) and Aoife (reserve) are the only ones who actually completed a league/championship run by IMRA.

gerry bradyAug 20 2008, 12:30am
You are not talking about these athletes when you refer to an alpine holiday. These are runners who have the courage to take on the commitment to run for Ireland. If you have problems with the selection criteria, you could have raised them last January when they were published.

Eoin KeithAug 20 2008, 9:26am
Gerry, I didn't question the selection criteria, I questioned the funding of athletes who have contributed nothing to IMRA. These athletes who have shown absolutely zero commitment to IMRA this year. I will be tabling motions for the forthcoming AGM to reflect the issues raised by this. Was there some kind of EGM last January that I never heard about?
gerry bradyAug 20 2008, 10:14am
Eoin, everybody has to start somewhere and some of the men can tell you how well some of the new female faces of 2008 performed in the trail league and leinster league. If we impose selection criteria, such as having to already have participated in x races during the current year, then the outcome is weaker teams who are not ready to compete in such high standard races as the European championships and World Trophy.

If we want to send teams to these major international events then I believe the Association should fund the teams. The athletes and managers are already taking time off work and undertaking considerable training and incurring additional costs to prevent and repair injury caused by heavy training. Two of the athletes you mentioned are now in the Alps undertaking additional training for the World Trophy.

The new runners this year all have a good athletic standard (top three men in the trial: 68 minutes for half-marathon, 14:50 for 5000m, 8:25 for 3000m steeplechase). This still will not be good enough to get us near the medals but it is going in the right direction and it will bring the best out of the more established runners who made the teams.

Too much racing in the Leinster and Winter league races will bring domestic success at the cost of performance at international level. There are previous examples of this mistake and my job is get better performances at international level rather than more competitive leagues at home. It was striking how few of the top runners in the Leinster league ran the trial.
Peter O'FarrellAug 20 2008, 5:11pmJeez, where do you start?
Eoin, your point is invalid this year, the AGM will no doubt include a robust discussion to decide if selection criteria are to change for next year.

In an ideal world hill-running would be more popular and top class Irish athletes would race domestically, until that changes track and road take priority for fast athletes and their coaches and thus the lads are not available to run up 3 rock on a summers Wednesday.

The point of a trial race is to find the best athletes to send to the Worlds.

The lads who finished the trial race first will do their country proud and have already shown they are better at running uphill then the men who finished first second and third in the KOM uphill only domestic competition.

Having them in the race raises everyones game to a standard closer (but still much lower) then the standard at the worlds.

Lindie NaughtonAug 20 2008, 6:42pmFirst of all let me defend the selection of Edel, a loyal hill runner of many years standing - and fourth in the Scottish trial. We are lucky she is sticking with us.
Unfortunately, hill running is seen as an "easy" Irish vest by middle-long distance club athletes, especially in the "uphill" years. When they go to the Europeans or Worlds and find themselves getting humiliated, they disappear. This is not entirely surprising.
One solution would be to have a training day maybe in April. We would approach likely athletes, chat to them, and invite them along. We could then show them what is required and how we expect them to train and race.
We also have to get youngsters committed to hill running from an early age. Look at the Finns and the Jennings - they all started young and hill running is now in their DNA. They don't listen to coaches who tell them to stay off the hills. If we go ahead with the November trail series, why not make it primarily for juniors - one lap for U14, two for U17 (or something - all ideas welcome).
One final point: teams are funded? Whenever did that start? Juniors yes, seniors, h'mmm...
Eoin KeithAug 21 2008, 12:10amHi All,

First of all, if Edel is a loyal hillrunner of many years then I apologise for putting her name on my list below. As I said, I just did a search of the number of races run this year by each of the runners selected, so I would have missed previous years. I thought I recognised her name alright.

Secondly, to re-iterate... I'm not questioning the selection criteria, I'm questioning the FUNDING. (Yes Lindie, we've been assisting the international teams with their expenses for a year or two now, as far as I know. A motion was passed at the AGM a few years ago when the race entry fees were increased and the membership fee introduced suggesting that some of the moneys raised be used for this purpose. The eejit who suggested this was me, I think!).

So, Gerry and Peter, try not to argue with a point I'm not even making. I'm talking about using money that has been accumulated through the entry fees and memberships paid by the ordinary IMRA members to pay for trips for people who have only taken part in the trial race. I'm not talking about changing selection criteria (that's a seperate dicussion). Clearly they qualified through the current defined criteria, and therefore have earned their place on the team in accordance with those criteria. What I'm talking about is funding.

There is nothing to stop IMRA having funding criteria that are different to selection criteria. This would allow faster runners to turn up and qualify to run in an Irish vest if they wanted to (and had the ability, obviously), but without them getting a free ride on the back of the IMRA membership. If this money was coming from the sports council or some other external source specifically for high performance athletics then I wouldn't have a problem. But it isn't. Its coming from a relatively small pool of money collected from the IMRA membership through their ongoing participation in the organisation. My own opinion, and sense of fairness, would say that this money should be used for the benifit of the regular IMRA members, rather than runners who have only run the trial and have not contributed to IMRA in any way.
Lindie NaughtonAug 21 2008, 1:32pmAgree entirely with you Eoin. Apologies for wandering off the point.
Paul MahonAug 21 2008, 4:02pmIn relation to the points being raised on Funding of the athletes selected to compete for Ireland my understanding is as follows:
Monies to fund the participation of juniors at international level are funded Primarily through the monies raised by Joe Lalor's Wicklow Way Relay.
After a lengthily AGM debate several years back on a motion proposing increased race entry fees and the introduction of an annual membership fee, which was proposed initially at ?20 per year, it was agreed that the membership fee be set at ?10 per year and that the monies thus raised would be ring fenced for use in funding international teams.
Having served on the IMRA committee on several occasions in recent years the monies thus raised were indeed distributed in as fair a manner as the committee saw fit in funding international teams and I understand that this is still the case.
Whilst the degree of financial support has thankfully increased significantly compared to the past is it my understanding that no senior athlete gets a fully funded trip courtesy of IMRA whilst competing in an international competition.
Representing your country should be a privilege not a financial obligation as it was in the past and I support the recent changes which I believe will serve the Association well in it's development in the future.
Sean HehirAug 25 2008, 6:50amI was alerted by a friend to posts made on this page questioning the legitimacy of my selection and \"Funding\" on the Irish team for the forthcoming World Mountain Running Trophy (Ref Eoin Keith Posted 19th Aug 11:31PM).

I was encouraged to take part in the trial race for the World Trophy by Barry Minnock, a clubmate who has done his best to promote and encourage other athletes in the club to take part in IMRA races (with 4 Rathfarnham WSAF athletes selected for the forthcoming championships). Having finished a long and ardous track season it would have made sense to rest up for the Cross-Country season ahead, but I was excited and enthusiastic by this new challenge.

In preparation for the trial race I drove from Dublin to the course on the Cork/Tipperary border in horrendous conditions on the Tuesday prior to the race, and jogged the complete course from base to summit despite torrential rain and poor conditions. On reaching the top I had to wait for a half hour in my running gear, in wet, windy and cold conditions on top of Galtee Mor for the thick cloud cover to clear before descending (subsequently this part of the course was correctly deemed too dangerous for the purpose of the trial race).

I prepared for the trial race as I would any other, sparing no expense in the process, and having met the selection criteria (finishing 3rd on the day) I was delighted to be selected to represent my country and IMRA in the forthcoming World Trophy as this is my first senior international cap.

I subsequently departed for a week of altitude training in the Italian Alps to prepare for these championships and am on my way home at present. Training at an altitude of over 2000mts, Barry Minnock and I have logged in excess 180 kilometres. Outlined below is our weeks training schedule that can be confirmed by Barry.

Monday: PM 1hr25 Easy Paced Run

Tuesday:
AM 1 Hour Easy Paced Run (Hill Trail - Climbing 400mts)
PM 1hr 40mins Easy Paced Run (Hill Trail - Climbing 650mts)

Wednesday:
AM 1 Hour Easy Paced Run
PM 20mins Warm Up, Hill Rep Session, 2mins Uphill Hard x 10, 1mins Down Recover (Total Climb 450mts), 40mins Warm Down

Thursday
AM 1 Hour Easy Paced Run
PM 2hr 30mins Easy Paced Run (Hill Trail - Climbing 1100mts)

Friday
AM 1 Hour Easy Paced Run
PM 20mins Warm Up, Broken Tempo Run (undulating course), 20mins Tempo, 3mins Jog, 15mins Tempo, 3mins Jog, 10mins Tempo, 30mins Warm Down

Saturday
AM 1hr 25mins Easy Paced Run

Sunday
AM 1 Hour Easy Paced Run
PM 20mins Warm Up, Hill Rep Session, 5mins Uphill Hard x 6, 2mins Recover (Total Climb 850mts), 50mins Warm Down

This training week has cost me in excess of E1000 between flights, travel, accomodation and food. I look upon it as being a worthwhile investment as it will enable me to compete to the best of my ability in the forthcoming World Trophy. On top of this I have to take 2 days unpaid leave from work so as I can represent IMRA and my country. This will leave of pocket to the tune of an additional E500. Also all Irish athletes have been asked to contribute to travel expenses, so this trip is not fully subsidised.

Having read the Team Guide for the World Trophy I understand that the LOC (Local Organising Committee or host country) finance in full accomodationand meals. This document is available from the race website. The only expense to IMRA is the transport to the event, which as previously stated the athletes themselves are partially paying for.

As specified in this post I have gone to considerable expense, both financially and physically, to prepare for these championships. Having been in corre3spondence with the other two athletes singled out by Eoin Keith in his post (Ref Ian Keith 19th Aug 11:31pm) they also are putting in a massive effort to prepare for these championships. For us the World Trophy is not an \"ALPINE HOLIDAY\" and the suggestion infuriating.

I am ready to compete for my country in the forthcoming World Trophy. Rather than reading posts questioning team selection and subsequent partial funding of travel, now is the time for people to start getting behind the team and offering words of encouragement and support.

I look forward to racing in the World Trophy and giving my all for IMRA and my country.

As a footnote, to my knowledge Athletics Ireland do not ask athletes to pay for accomodation and travel expenses when representing their country in International Athletics Championships. Athletics Ireland base selection for European and World Cross Country Championships on trial races and preselection in a similar manner to IMRA (eg Inter-Club and Inter-County Cross Country Championships).

Finally I am not an IMRA blow-in as insinuated by Eoin Keith. Previously I have won the IMRA All-Ireland Schools Mountain Running Champiopnships (Senior Boys) and took part in the World Trophy Trial race later that year in the Galtees, failing to make the team on that occasion. Thankfully with the additional effort I have made on this occasion I have made the team.
Rene BorgAug 25 2008, 7:37amExcellent post, Sean, and fairplay to you for sharing your training programme, it\'s an interesting read in itself.

Good luck in Switzerland!
Brendan LawlorAug 25 2008, 8:59amSean

Well done on your preparations and your posting. Don't be put off by some of the negativity on this forum - the majority of IMRA members will quite rightly be 100% behind the various teams and hoping for good performances in Switzerland.
Lindie NaughtonAug 25 2008, 3:42pmDelighted that Sean and Barry have been training the the Alps - the only way forward.
So how can we attract runners of Sean's calibre back to hill running after their initial experience at schools level? Plus get more youngsters in so that there is no doubt about their commitment?
PJ CarrollAug 25 2008, 8:41pmIt's great that the lads are preparing in such a professional manner and only right that Ireland send its best possible team. May I wish the whole team the very best .
Barry MinnockAug 25 2008, 9:16pmHaving been witness to Sean's overnight angst after reading the negative posts on this tread I can tell you that they do personally insult and affect team preparation. Now I feel compelled to add some thoughts before I have another sleepless night : )

There were several questions raised:

(i) Is the current selection policy and approach appropariate?

For me this is a definite YES. A trial on a course similar to the international race is the only fair mechanism for selecting a team. By saying the selected team makes depressing reading implies there was something wrong with the selection approach. The full team have excelled nationally at cross-country, road and track races, making it a team that hopefully can work towards IMRA's high performance strategy objectives. Just because some of team are not regular IMRA racers does not mean they are lower-level IMRA members or that they do not have in interest in hill running. To be honest, competitive cross-country, track and road races are better preparation for international mountain races than the vast majority of IMRA races. If you analyse international mountain running teams you will find that the majority are made up of CC/road/track runners and cyclists. There are very few mountain specialists. In my opinion, the only selection that could have been questioned was my own pre-selection.

(ii) Should selected athletes be subsidised on internation trips?

Again for me this is a definite YES. As Paul eluded to, representing your country should not impose a significant financial burden. Athletes by their very nature are driven by non-financial goals and a lot of top athletes would not be able to complete internationally without the support of and organisation like IMRA. Eoin - you of all people should understand this having been subsidised on several international competition trips. The begrudgery in Ireland sometimes baffles me. Last year out training effort was questioned (hopefully Sean's post has put an end to that:) and this year it's our funding - it never ends.

(iii) Should regular IMRA runners be treated differently to 'trial-only' runners?

For me this is a definite NO. It is critical that all team members are treated equally. By running the trial race the selected runners have become IMRA members with the same rights as any other IMRA member. If someone like Finola Britton who has the potential to take home an individual medal for IMRA and Ireland were to show to a trial, would we leave her to her own devices in relation to the competition? I hope not.

Approving any motion to change to the current approach would cause serious problems. If the likes of Robbie Crossan, Gary Crossan, Brian Keane or Sean O'hEigeartaigh who have performed well for IMRA in the past were selected this year, would there be questions over their funding because they haven't run an IMRA race in 2008?

In terms of give-back to IMRA the selected athletes hopefully provide some inspiration to the IMRA running community and show that it is possible for us to improve and compete on an international stage. I know for me the teams of 2004-06 (including the 'trial-only' runners) provided the encouragement I needed to up my own game. Remember that running clubs like Rathfarnham, Crusaders and Clonliffe (& their athletes) provide a huge amount in terms of training support and racing alternatives to IMRA members. For me, Gerry's promotion of enhanced AAI, club and IMRA integration is beginning to show a return on investment.

(iv) Should IMRA be responsible for organising team selection and funding for international mountain races?

This is another YES in my book. Without IMRA taking on this role I suspect that Irish team would disappear from these competitions, which would be a real shame. Without a higher goal, the competitiveness and membership of IMRA would suffer. If the majority of IMRA members feel that a small portion of their IMRA membership and race fees are being inappropriately spent on subsidising international competitions, then I believe the answer is for the IMRA committee to try to improve the sponsorship received and use this money to fund international runners. Remember that the IMRA funding towards these competitions is relatively low with the host nation and WMRA covering the majority of the costs.

(v) How do we encourage 'trial-only' runners to become active IMRA members?

There is no simple solution to this question. I don't remember any Irish athlete being humiliated and the vast majority who have 'disappeared' have had very good reasons for doing so. Good runners will always have to make choices between races and unfortunately hill running is currently lower down the pecking order. Even athletes who were nurtured from an early age have disappeared. The answer for me is to fully encourage club runners wheather they join IMRA for 1 race or 100+. This year, thanks mainly to Gerry's efforts, I have witnessed hill running gain increased respect within the AAI community. With patience and continued effort we can increase IMRA competition, reduce number of 'disappearing' runners and improve results at international races.


OK, that's my cents worth. Have I outdone Sean? The competitiveness within wants to, but he is a tough cookie : ) Thankfully Sean has left our Alps training base so I can now calm down the training and get some rest! Seriously, training with club and IMRA runners is a joy we all understand competitive spirit and the desire to maximise individual and team performance. We should all support one another, not promote negativity. I'm sure larger IMRA alpine training groups could be organised in the future, which would improve performances. With Mark, Brian, Mike, Tom, Peter & myself I think we have a good senior mens team that can do IMRA proud - here's hoping we can perform on the day ...
Eugene CoppingerAug 25 2008, 9:35pmBest of luck to the teams heading off on this Alpine Holiday. Well done to Gerry Brady on actually doing his job properly and to Barry Minnock for encouraging new runners to the sport.<br />
And a special good luck to Mags and my sis ( is she actually on a junket or will she be managing the team? ).<br />
Douglas BarryAug 25 2008, 11:50pmEvery runner that enters an IMRA race is an IMRA member and is entitled to whatever rights an IMRA member has. Allocating international funding based on the number of races a runner has done would be foolish and could possibly even have future legal repercussions around the membership status.

Doing the trial race and finishing in a high enough position to satisfy the selectors’ requirements should be enough to satisfy any funding allocation requirements as well. After all, Ireland wants (or at least it should) to send the best available athletes to compete internationally. Competitions like the Worlds are hard, demanding and fast, and the only way to progress in them is to send tough and fast athletes to them.

Subsidising people just because they are nice and go to every cockfight going is not the basis for success. Fast people should be encouraged to enter the trial to boost the quality of the team, and not be hindered financially as a result of so doing.

Well done Barry on your powers of persuasion!
Eoin KeithAug 26 2008, 1:17amWell this has certainly started a healthy debate anyway!

Lots of points raised, hopefully I'll get to reply to them all....

Firstly in reply to Sean, thanks for replying. You start by saying that I questioned the legitimacy of your selection. To repeat myself yet again... I didn't. I'm neither questioning the selection of the athletes, nor the process used to select them. The process was published, and you achieved the necessary criteria. End of story. My point is entirely and solely about funding, not selection. You can put up as many red-herrings about selection as you like, but I'm not going confine my comments to the funding issue, which is the only point I raised in the original forum posting.

Your dedication to your racing and training is fantastic and impressive. However, I don't see how it is relevant to the point I was making about funding. You say yourself that the trip is not fully subsidised, so you are indeed being partially subsidised from IMRA funds. I think its perfectly acceptable for the people who have paid the memberships and race entry fees that this subsidy comes from should be able to open a debate on how this money is used. It is not a limitless bucket of money to be thrown around with abandon. There are plenty of other uses that it could be put to that would have a much much greater benifit for far larger numbers of IMRA members who are outside the circle of elite international athletes. If this questioning is looked on as negatively by some then tough. IMRA is still run on democratic lines, and thankfully the membership can still raise issues with our wise leaders, paricularly ar the AGM.

This isn't government money, sports council money, OCI money, Athletics Ireland money or any other external source. Its money contributed by the thousand or so runners who have run in IMRA races this year (and indeed previous years). I would agree entirely that ideally any racer who represents their country should not have to dip into their own pockets to do so. Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world. What I am questioning is whether IMRA funds are the correct place to souce this money for athletes who have simply turned up to the trial race and have made no contribution to the on-going running of the organisation, either by comepeting in IMRA races or volunteering to help in the running of races etc. You most certainly do fall into this category. The only record of you running a race before the trial race in the online database is from the Christmas Flash in 2002. Preumably your runs in the Schools championships and Galtees World Tropy Trial race predate the database records, which only go back as far as 2000, as far as I know.

Barry,
Thanks for replying with such a well voiced and thought out reply. It asks all the right questions, and your answers are very well put. So, to address your points:

(i) I agree with you on most of your points here. I don't think there is anything wrong with the selection process. But then, I never questioned this in the first place.

(ii) I've addressed this point above. I do think athletes should be subsidised in an ideal world, but I don't think IMRA is the right organisation to be providing funds to athletes who are not regular members of the association. IMRA has very limited funds, and there are lots of things that the organisations funds could be used for that would benifit the entire membership of the organisation, rather than just a few elite athletes.

Since you brought my own funding into question... I've represented IMRA twice in international races. I don't remember recieving any subsidies for this, and I didn't have a problem with that. The only other times I have run for Ireland I recieved no subsidies from the relevent governing bodies, apart from being issued team gear. I did recieve sponsorship for one international race (Which is very different to a subsidy being raised from the organisations's membership). All other times I paid for everything myself.

I'm not begrudging. I'm questioning the use of IMRA money raised from ordinary IMRA members who are the real heart and soul of IMRA.

As for the questioning of the training efforts of last years athletes... I doubt anyone could have been more angered by that than me. But then I think that the mas rush to pull in athletes from outside of IMRA is pandering to this attitude, and is direct contrast to oft-stated (at last years AGM at least) policy that IMRA is not trying to attract new members.

(iii) Here we disagree. For something as small as the end of league prize we treat runners differently based on their volunteering to help out in the running of IMRA races. I'll take it that people can see the logic of this. If you don't contribute then you don't get you're prize. Why should international athletes not be required to help out with the running of races, or even taking part in the races, before recieveing a much more expensive contribution from IMRA? On a per-person basis there is a far bigger expense involved.

(iv) It depends on the circumstances. I certainly wouldn't have an issue with the sports council (or some similar organisation) being responsible for selection and funding for international races. In fact I think they should be responsible for funding. And if they wanted to determine the selection because they provided the money then I personally wouldn't have a problem with that either.

I couldn't more strongly disagree that the competitiveness and membership of IMRA would suffer if IMRA had no involvment in international competitions. Only a very very small proportion of IMRA members compete in international hillraces (although this proportion is growing with the development teams being sent to some of the more accessable international races). One of the many things that I love about IMRA racing is the competiveness and competition that happens throughout the field, from first to last. The races are full of mini-battles for position week in-week out. Rene's blog provides a great example of the intensity of the competion involved. International races are entirely irrelevant to this. I also doubt very much that the we would loose many members if IMRA didn't send teams to international races. Apart from the trail only runners, I would find it hard to envisage that we would loose any more than single figures. (Also, I believe that one of the committees goals is to keep the membership numbers in check, so maybe they should explore this option if they believe it to be the case. Encouraging fast runners into the sport from other areas of athletics, whilst at the same time trying not to encourage "ordinary" runners to take part in our races smacks of elitism, which is something I hate seeing developing in an organisation as previously non-elitist as IMRA)

(v) Thats exactly what I'm trying to address here. As stated above, we encourage people to volunteer in order to recieve their end of league prize. I don't think it would be too big an issue to encourage internationals to run in our races or volunteer to help in order to recieve a subsidy for their international trip. You never know... taking part in some hill runs might actually be good preparation for representing Ireland at hill-running.

Again, I don't think competition need encouraging in IMRA. It is flourishing, as far as I can see, unless you're looking at it from a purely elitist point of view. When I look at IMRA I don't see the organisation as purely a breeding ground for international athletes. I see the multitude of races we run in Ireland, and the huge range and ability and variety of runners who take part in them as the the heart and soul of the organisation.

Douglas: I'm not aware of any runner having any "right" to funding. That sounds quite bizzare to me. Is the end of league prize a "right" that all league finishers should recieve as a legal entitlement? I don't see why IMRA cannot allocate funding by any means it sees as fit. I know that in the vast majority of other sports funding is allocated on a tiered basis, based on ability. And of course in IMRA's case ability could be measured using criteria measured accross more than run race, if that was desired to encourage internationals to more actively participate in local races. I know that the sports council imposes conditions on their carded (funded) athletes to ensure that they participate in local races (such as national championships), where they feel it is appropriate. I doubt they would do this if it were legally suspect.

Finally.... of course I hope that the IMRA team does as well as possible. I don't doubt for a second that they will give 100% effort
gerry bradyAug 26 2008, 9:21amEoin, IMRA received very substantial high performance funding from Ordnance Survey Ireland for 2008.

Regarding finding runners in the database, you know yourself that the results of schools and trial races are often not incorporated into the database because the results are usually captured by hand on race day and it is a lot of work to simulate a virtual race at home on the laptop. For example, Brian McMahon (2nd in the trial) also competed in the 2004 and 2006 trials.

Last year I compiled the results of previous trial races (they are incomplete because I could not find all results in old forum and race postings and in some cases only the names of the top finishers managed to be recorded by those standing on cold, windy, and wet mountain summits), see http://www.imra.ie/ad-hoc/World%20&%20European%20Trials%20Results.xls

Vivian and Caroline have compiled the results of previous British and Irish underage races and they can be added to the website to flesh out the history more.

I think the funding distinction you are suggesting would effectively end any serious hopes of IMRA winning international team medals as it would make some new athletes feel unwelcome and lessen the intensity of competition at the front of the race (the money is not the main issue even though some of the new runners are students, attitude is). These new athletes often make their first appearance in a trial. To mention one, Eamonn McMahon from Dundalk, he first appeared in a trial in the early 1990s and then went on to record three finishes in the top 12 in the World Trophy and annually organises the Cooley race to this day.

IMRA is a family really and is fully inclusive and hopefully remains so.
Sean O hEigeartaighAug 26 2008, 11:09amEoin,

Galtees 2002, from this website.

http://www.imra.ie/events/view/tab/report/id/98/

Unfortunately the results from the Irish schools 2002 don't appear to be online, but Sean won a thrilling battle with former hillrunning stalward Peter Dalton in the closing stages.

Eoin KeithAug 26 2008, 11:36pmSean: Thanks for that. I can see that due to the nature of the race the results of anyone doing the trial race only never made it into the database that day. Even if it had been in the database it wouldn't have altered my original post. In the same way that runners only get their end of league prize based on their volunteering for the current year (Brendan was adamant about this when he introduced the criteria, no matter how much work people had put into the organisation in previous years), I personally think that funding criteria should be based on a person's contribution to IMRA over either the current or previous year. I don't see why internationals should get treated with looser criteria than other IMRA members.

A very recent case of local races being used to decide both selection and funding criteria occured in athletics recently, when two runners had both achieved the B standard for their distance for going to the olympics. The runner who attended the national championships was given the place on the team (and the associated funding) simply on the basis that he turned up and raced at the nationals.

Gerry: Was the sponsorship money given by the Ordnance Survey specificlly for internationals (as far as the OS are concerned), or was it given to IMRA to use in any way we choose?

IMRA's most successful international athletes have been runners who fully partook in IMRA races, and didn't just arrive in for the trial race. I personally don't think this is an aberation, but rather an obvious cause and effect. There was never a question around these runners being part of the family :)
Francis cosgraveAug 27 2008, 7:46amI would just like to wish all the Irish team the very best in the upcoming World Mountain Running Championship.

I don’t wish to get caught up in the current debate about funding because we need to be sensitive and not distract any of the team members from their final preparations.
I speak from experience I have run for Ireland before and I have being the Philippines Sky running team coach and manager for the last four years.

I would like to congratulate Barry & Sean especially for the extra special training they have done. They have gone the extra mile and are well deserving of all support especially in the form of words of encouragement. They are a good example to us all with the commitment they have made in preparation. They are not merely running to make up the numbers, as some have in past teams, but I know they have a deep seated desire to make an impact for the Irish team.
May the experience you all gain at this championship be a stepping stone toward even greater things to come.


Sean O hEigeartaighAug 27 2008, 12:03pmJust to clarify Eoin's point about the athletics, both athletes in question turned up for the nationals. One of the athletes was told that if he won this race he'd be sent to the olympics; the other wasn't. This was a trial race, much like ours last week, despite for the strange way it was carried out.

If I'm thinking of a different incident Eoin, I apologise, but it's the only one that fits the criteria post Sydney 2000.
Laura FlynnAug 31 2008, 4:10pmAfter our performances last year at international level much of the forum debate related to how best we improve performances.As far as I remember,it was generally agreed that an effort should me made to attract athletes who were perfoming well on track,road and country,or 'elite' athletes for want of a better description.<br />
I was delighted this year to see Mags Grennan,Donna Mahon,Sean o hEiher and others competing in the trials despite the fact that it's made it more difficult, if not impossible, for me to get on the team.Of course they should be funded to travel and represent IMRA and their country.<br />
I have no difficulty in my race subs contributing to the cost.I just hope the negative sentiment expressed by Eoin Keith hasn't soured their experience and we will see them at IMRA races,helping to raise the standard and profile of the sport.Well done to all who qualified and good luck.
gerry bradySep 2 2008, 12:54pmPeter O Farrell (Rathfarnham) has come onto the World Trophy team in place of Tom Hogan (Slaneyside). Ciaran Doherty (Letterkenny) is first reserve. Congratulations Peter and Ciaran.
jimmy synnottSep 5 2008, 8:02pmBest of luck to all compeating in the up comming worlds. To all the first timers, run well but most of all enjoy the occasion.Wear the green with bride.
jimmy SynnottSep 5 2008, 8:05pmoops that should read pride, but you knew that anyway ha ha. Take care
Alan David MatthewsSep 10 2008, 11:43pmI'd agree with you Eoin and your valid points about the funding .
Rene BorgSep 14 2008, 5:34pmFor those who haven't seen yet, Gerry Brady has posted today's results for the World Trophy.

Well done to everyone, and especially Brian McMahon for what looks a very impressive time. On the local rivalry side of things it was interesting to note that Ireland was victorious on both the men and ladies front against Northern Ireland.
Douglas BarrySep 14 2008, 10:09pmCongratulations to everyone on the Irish team for their efforts at the Worlds in Crans Montana. I hope that some of the publicly expressed doubts about worthiness of financial support did not distract and detract from the individual performances. I must commend everyone for their efforts and committment to progressing Ireland's status on the world stage. It's nice to see progress.

Once again congratulations to everybody involved.

Douglas
Eoin KeithSep 14 2008, 10:16pm
A big congratulions to all runners accross all the IMRA teams who ran today. To step up to the plate and run at the top level of the sport takes a huge amount of guts and determination.

In particular I'd personally like to conratulate Barry, who has improved by such unbelieveable amounts before our eyes over the last couple of years, and put in a scoring run for Ireland today, despite recovering from a bug which struck him with such terrible timing in the last week. Well done Barry.
Rene BorgSep 15 2008, 8:32amTo put the team's good performance further into perspective, Mark Ryan was injured straight after the trial, and did his first run before the World Trophy on the Friday.

But as he said, at least he was rested! Bodes well for the future, a bit more improvement and a joust with Scotland may just be in the cards.
Brendan LawlorSep 15 2008, 8:39amCongratulations to all involved..further improvement and good team performances all round!
Sean O hEigeartaighSep 15 2008, 2:18pmBrian's performance yesterday was a very significant run - it's the best senior male Irish finish in the worlds since 1996 (the end of the 'glory years' of Bryson, Lenihan et al). What makes it most significant in my mind is that whereas it was a magnificent performance that raised the bar for the rest of us, it's a performance that others of us can aspire to.
Mark Ryan actually beat Brian in the trials (although it's likely Brian trained through the race heavily) and so can aspire to run close to the same level (unfortunately injury held him back). We're all starting to see the remarkable potential of Barry Minnock, who I reckon can also run to that level, but was badly sick (fair play for finishing and scoring Barry - it makes you even more impressive!).

I think we're in the position now where for the first time in a good while we have a young pool of high performers who can compete at the highest level. At the rate Brian's been improving over road, country and hill, he can realistically look at top 10 uphill in two years - and he's only 25/26. Mark and Barry are ~30, but as relative latecomers to the sport, can expect up to a decade of improvement. Backing them up, Sean Hehir, Mick Kelly, Peter O'Farrell can expect to continue improving, as well as the likes of Ronan Guirey, Bryan Keane, Colm Mullen, Tom Hogan, Eoin Gahon, Eoin McKenna, James McFadden and perhaps Gary Crossnan and others - and it's my ambition to be fighting for a team place too.

I know the international side of the sport doesn't carry that much significance for many people - and that's fair enough, IMRA's non-elitism has always been one of its best points - but if we are ever to produce a team that can emulate or surpass Lenihan et al's world bronze team medals, now's the time - over the next few years.
I firmly believe we can do this - place 4 runners in the top 25 within two years (as unrealistic as it may sound).

Huge credit has to go to Gerry Brady for his tireless recent work, but also to previous coaches such as Lindie Naughton and Paul Nolan who laid the groundwork.

We may not get this situation again, so now's the time - we can make a little history!

Well done to all,
Seán
Sean O hEigeartaighSep 15 2008, 2:46pmBrian's performance yesterday was a very significant run - it's the best senior male Irish finish in the worlds since 1996 (the end of the 'glory years' of Bryson, Lenihan et al). What makes it most significant in my mind is that whereas it was a magnificent performance that raised the bar for the rest of us, it's a performance that others of us can aspire to.
Mark Ryan actually beat Brian in the trials (although it's likely Brian trained through the race heavily) and so can aspire to run close to the same level (unfortunately injury held him back). We're all starting to see the remarkable potential of Barry Minnock, who I reckon can also run to that level, but was badly sick (fair play for finishing and scoring Barry - it makes you even more impressive!).

I think we're in the position now where for the first time in a good while we have a young pool of high performers who can compete at the highest level. At the rate Brian's been improving over road, country and hill, he can realistically look at top 10 uphill in two years - and he's only 25/26. Mark and Barry are ~30, but as relative latecomers to the sport, can expect up to a decade of improvement. Backing them up, Sean Hehir, Mick Kelly, Peter O'Farrell can expect to continue improving, as well as the likes of Ronan Guirey, Bryan Keane, Colm Mullen, Tom Hogan, Eoin Gahon, Eoin McKenna, James McFadden and perhaps Gary Crossnan and others - and it's my ambition to be fighting for a team place too.

I know the international side of the sport doesn't carry that much significance for many people - and that's fair enough, IMRA's non-elitism has always been one of its best points - but if we are ever to produce a team that can emulate or surpass Lenihan et al's world bronze team medals, now's the time - over the next few years.
I firmly believe we can do this - place 4 runners in the top 25 within two years (as unrealistic as it may sound).

Huge credit has to go to Gerry Brady for his tireless recent work, but also to previous coaches such as Lindie Naughton and Paul Nolan who laid the groundwork.

We may not get this situation again, so now's the time - we can make a little history!

Well done to all,
Seán
Sean O hEigeartaighSep 15 2008, 2:52pmBrian's performance yesterday was a very significant run - it's the best senior male Irish finish in the worlds since 1996 (the end of the 'glory years' of Bryson, Lenihan et al). What makes it most significant in my mind is that whereas it was a magnificent performance that raised the bar for the rest of us, it's a performance that others of us can aspire to.
Mark Ryan actually beat Brian in the trials (although it's likely Brian trained through the race heavily) and so can aspire to run close to the same level (unfortunately injury held him back). We're all starting to see the remarkable potential of Barry Minnock, who I reckon can also run to that level, but was badly sick (fair play for finishing and scoring Barry - it makes you even more impressive!).

I think we're in the position now where for the first time in a good while we have a young pool of high performers who can compete at the highest level. At the rate Brian's been improving over road, country and hill, he can realistically look at top 10 uphill in two years - and he's only 25/26. Mark and Barry are ~30, but as relative latecomers to the sport, can expect up to a decade of improvement. Backing them up, Sean Hehir, Mick Kelly, Peter O'Farrell can expect to continue improving, as well as the likes of Ronan Guirey, Bryan Keane, Colm Mullen, Tom Hogan, Eoin Gahon, Eoin McKenna, James McFadden and perhaps Gary Crossnan and others - and it's my ambition to be fighting for a team place too.

I know the international side of the sport doesn't carry that much significance for many people - and that's fair enough, IMRA's non-elitism has always been one of its best points - but if we are ever to produce a team that can emulate or surpass Lenihan et al's world bronze team medals, now's the time - over the next few years.
I firmly believe we can do this - place 4 runners in the top 25 within two years (as unrealistic as it may sound).

Huge credit has to go to Gerry Brady for his tireless recent work, but also to previous coaches such as Lindie Naughton and Paul Nolan who laid the groundwork.

We may not get this situation again, so now's the time - we can make a little history!

Well done to all,
Seán
Sean O hEigeartaighSep 15 2008, 7:53pmOh and one other point to put Brian's run in perspective given the rising standards in the world trophy. In 1996 when Robbie Bryson finished 24th he was ~5:40 behind the winner Antonio Molinari. Brian's +3:31 would have placed him 10th that day, and it could be argued that Wyatt is a stronger runner to be compared against than Molinari. A truly great run.
gerry bradySep 15 2008, 8:30pmWell done Moire and Eoin on your performances over the weekend. Some photos from the World Trophy http://www.flickr.com/photos/24280411@N06/sets/72157607307250916/
Rene BorgSep 22 2008, 4:03pmAnonymous posts are not accepted on the IMRA forum. This is particularly true when a post, however well-worded, includes open accusations about another IMRA member (in this case about misrepresentation of the "facts").

Post has been deleted, so has the anonymous test post that was created by Veritas to test if he/she would get through.

I generally just delete these posts, but I think a reiteration of proper forum conduct is in order, as it has been a while since this was last brought up.

Open discussion (with the operative word being "open") is encouraged, however, so feel free to post under your real name.

And, as a word of advice, if statistics are used to criticise they should at least be marginally mathematically relevant.

The men this year finished in the top-59%. Your examples were 73%, 67%, 94%, and 58%. Only the last could be counted as being "better" if you accept that pure mathematics. I'll leave others, better placed, to discuss the detailed comparisons between the years, but using the numbers as they are in this case, is clearly not proof of anything (putting the latter post in the category of unfounded accusations).

(note: all figures rounded mathematically to the nearest whole percentile using the standard method).
Sean O hEigeartaighSep 22 2008, 4:05pm(I went to the trouble of writing a reply to that anonymous post, so I'm damn well putting it up!)

Several observations:
"On European soil" is relevant because depth of fields tend to be much stronger for the races run in Europe due to more countries sending full teams and more top class athletes competing. As someone who finished 31st in Alaska(junior), ~125th in Italy, ~81st in NZ in three consecutive years my own experience was the more remote the location, the easier to place highly. The results you've picked out (Reunion, Borneo, Alaska, NZ) would support this.

Secondly, whereas performances at the very front are of a comparable standard, the depth of fields has risen sharply over the last decade. As I pointed out in another thread, Brian McMahon's %winning time would have placed him 10th in 1996 against perhaps a lesser winner than Wyatt (greatest of all time uphill?). If you take the other team members' percentages, I bet you'll find a similar trend.

Looking at points scores is misleading if you don't take into account the size and depth of the fields. Looking at where the team placed overall on the table is more telling.

The turkey men's result you highlight is a strong result, and arguably better,
or at least comparable, so I agree there. The 2001 men's junior is similarly strong - a year that featured strong performances from Peter Dalton and Niall Duncan, two great talents we sadly don't see enough of these days!

I would agree that this year's team performances were by no means breathtaking, but I feel the men's results in particular are encouraging as the team featured young, improving athletes who will develop considerably in future competitions.

By the way, I don't know if statistical people come any more 'real' than Gerry - who if I remember correctly works for the CSO!
Rene BorgSep 22 2008, 4:20pmSean, I know it's annoying to have replied to a post that is now deleted, but please don't repost posts that are being removed because they are deemed offensive (that just compounds the original insult).

Free speech should be respected, and fair play to anyone who puts their name out there if they know the majority will disagree, but we should not allow anonymous slander. So if I take it down, I will expect people not to repost it.

Since the discussion has now taken root, I'll leave the posts that are here as a once-off exception, but if there are any more anonymous personal attacks, I will close this thread down.

So far we've been blessed by moderating little or based on common sense, but if we see some of the trends starting that are everpresent on other message boards, we'll have to put in place a strict forum policy and forum moderation.
Sean O hEigeartaighSep 22 2008, 4:24pmSorry Rene, I thought offense had been taken to the anonymous nature rather than to the content, and that you were encouraging discussion in your previous post (maybe I read it too quickly).
Rene BorgSep 22 2008, 4:31pmNo worries Sean, I can see how my post could be understood that way.
Barry MinnockSep 22 2008, 5:02pmSupport Sean's comments above. Not sure if critical post should have been deleted - it's good to question and have a healthy debate.

Every year the competition is getting harder and the fact is that the more remote the location the easier it is to place well. When you see Wilson Busienei of Uganda (who came 46th in the world cross country) only come 93rd and the likes of Colin Donnelly who won Knockdhu come 111th you may start to appreciate the level of competition.

Focusing on the senior men team, I would say that the performance was equal to that of the Turkey team in 2006 but an improvement on the others mentioned. Certainly it's a performance that's going in the right direction. On the downside for the 'team', it was a performance that was largely down to Brian. There is a valid argument that the remainder of the team underperformed, but there's were reasons. Mark and Peter had injuries that preventing them from running in the weeks leading to the race & I was sick as a dog (lost 10% of my body weight over the week). I think if you were to send the same team out on the same course and we all performed to our potential I would expect a score in the region of 200 points (around 10th place) - fact remains that we didn't, but a lot of lessons were learnt and think the team will be better prepared and more agressive next year. One positive is that all plan to return to the hill running scene and there's only one resons to be driven to return and that is to improve - not for the holiday : ) If we can attract a couple of more top runners into the sport we will be looking the possibility of medals in no time at all ...
Rene BorgSep 22 2008, 5:32pmBarry,<br />
<br />
To clarify: I would never delete a post because it questioned whatever individuals may perceive as the "existing dogma" nor try to impede on a healthy debate in general<br />
<br />
Instead there's three points:<br />
<br />
1. The post is anonymous and chooses, not unprovocatively, the title "Veritas" (latin for The Truth)<br />
<br />
2. This first issue is compounded by several carefully veiled comments on Gerry Brady's presentation of the team's performance, such as:<br />
<br />
- frequent use of the word "slew" (defined as "to rotate something", "turn sharply" or similar wording implying basically that Gerry was presenting propaganda) <br />
- "very carefully chosen to colour statistics" (implying an insidious motive)<br />
- "frankly ignore past ..." (implying ill will towards past teams)<br />
- "not very honest and fair" (a perfectly viable personal opinion, but in this context serves to compound this anonymous criticism of the overall point presented)<br />
<br />
3. A general attack on the IMRA community's "backlash" against Eoin Keith's recent points for "speaking the truth" (certainly Eoin will be the first to concede he was merely stating his opinion). This sentence not only convinced me that the post's aim was inflammatory (as well as confirming the anonymous poster's complete lack of self-objectivity but that's up to that individual to address).<br />
<br />
The anonymous poster then goes on to quote "some of the correct" statistics (this implies that the data presented by Gerry are by definition incorrect). <br />
<br />
It's interesting to observe, however, that having already made clear his/her view that beyond lies, and damn lies, lie statistics, Veritas does not have issue with using a subjectively sampled set of statistics to solidify his/her own point.<br />
<br />
In any case, the anonymous poster has certainly attracted attention to the topic if that was what they were hoping for. I actually wholeheartedly embrace this debate (and indeed, find it interesting from a historical perspective), but the manner in which it was presented, I frankly find unnecessary for an inclusive community such as IMRA.<br />
<br />
There is no reason to believe that the IMRA membership will not respond cordially to a reasonably made point. And one may be urged to ask: "What's the point in putting your opinion out there if you are afraid someone will prove you wrong?" <br />
<br />
If that's someone's fear then they are clearly not interested in a debate of any sort, and their motives are then hard to interpret as being constructive.
Brendan LawlorSep 22 2008, 5:57pmRene

You were dead right to remove the anonomous post..if the individual concerned wants to have their opinion heard, they should put there name to the post and not hide behind Eoin Keith
P.J CarrollSep 22 2008, 10:50pmCongratulations to the irish teams who represented us in Crans Montana and to the management for the professional approach they are striving to adopt. This approach is to be commended if the performance of Brian McMahon is anything to go by. This new approach will bring success if fully embraced. Irish mountain running needs to attract more elite runners who will provide both inspiration and pride for the membership as a whole. Funding is a complex issue which I sincerely hope does not overshadow the positive direction the elite group are now heading in. I personally would be glad to see a proportion of race fees go towards international success.
On another note I would like to have have had the chance to read this anonymous post rather than having it deleted.
Eoin KeithSep 22 2008, 11:40pmBrendan... people hiding behind me... are you saying I'm fat :)
Eoin KeithSep 23 2008, 12:29amI'd just like to add a few thoughts on the forum, censorship, posting standards etc...

The IMRA forum is very open, and operates on a trust basis. When we first implemented it I predicted that this model would never last, but its a credit to all the posters that for the most part it operated successfully with the minimum of intervention. Most forums on the internet require both subscription and moderation. Some time we'll probably end up having to go down that route by necessity, which throws up problems of its own.

Personally, I'd be in favour of making it impossible to post anonymously, which would require moving to a subsciption based model. I personally have no problems signing my opinions and taking whatever comes my way as a result (as some of you might have guessed by now!). It might also be a necessity to move towards this model if the current war being waged behind the scenes, between the website techies and the spam-bots which are managing to get some spam posts onto the forum, doesn't get resolved effectively.

I can see why the anonymous poster didn't want to put up with some of the personal abuse I've had to deal with on the forum (described as "a Eoin Keith type backlash for speaking the truth" by the poster) from grown ups who should know better than to act like name-calling children. The biggest forum in Ireland (Boards.ie) has a very strict policy of "Attack the post, not the poster" which would have resulted in Eugene Coppinger and Laura McGinly being banned if they had posted similar posts to their wonderfully insightful contributions here on this thread. A little bit of moderation here along these lines would do no harm if the previous high standards of the forum break down. (On a positive note, I have to say that the above mentioned posts stand in stark contrast to the consitantly high standard of opinion and debate contributed in this thread by the likes of Barry, Sean Hehir, Sean O'H and Gerry Brady in particular).

Finally, on the subject of the world championship performance of the Irish team, I'd just like to re-iterate my congratulations to both the team and their support crew, and especially Gerry Brady who puts in an enormous year round effort driving the high performance programme. I'm not in the slightest bit bothered how their performance rates against past performances or against other countries. The team went out there and ran to the best of their abilities. That is all you can ask of anyone. There are aspects of the high performance programme that I would like to see changed, but this in no way affects my opinion of the people involved, who I know are doing sterling work, and even when I disagree with what is being done, I know it is being done with only positive intentions.

Finally Finally... most people would say that freedom of speech is a good thing. That means you have to be open to debate about things you may not think should be debated. Hopefully the distant days of "Una Doce, Una Voce" are long behind us.
Alan MatthewsSep 23 2008, 6:57pmFair play to all the runners !
Brendan LawlorSep 23 2008, 7:29pm
The forum is growing in importance as a place for ordinary IMRA members to articulate their views on a range of matters and the committee continually monitors the various threads to see how debates are unfolding

Rene, our webmaster, will be proposing some forum guidelines soon to avoid any confusion which might arise regarding 'controversial' postings but free and open debate will continue to be encouraged - while I don't agree with some of the views expressed by Eoin Keith and others on this thread I respect the right of members to hold and express those views.

At 52 posts (53 if you include the deleted anonymous one) this is now IMRA's biggest Forum thread and certainly if you were to do a word count it would be more than double the size of the next one (Ballinastoe 2008 at 44 posts)

Well done to all involved on the very high standard of debate and contribution