Irish Mountain
Running Association

Brockagh

Forum Messages

AuthorDateMessage
Bronagh CheethamMay 9 2010, 10:24pmVolunteers required for Brockagh race, namely laptop users and race marker as well as general runner and non runner volunteers. thanks, Bronagh
Bronagh CheethamMay 13 2010, 10:02pmLaptop user required for this race please, also some non runners. thanks
Bronagh CheethamMay 17 2010, 9:59pmJust over a week to this race and Im afraid it obviously cant be run without a laptop user or non runners. Any more volunteers out there please? there must be! if you can sign up via the volunteer tab or email me on bronaghcheetham01@googlemail.com. Thanks to the current volunteers listed - can any of you switch to non runners? Thanks
Bronagh CheethamMay 20 2010, 9:17pmJustin, John Greene and Alan, can you forward your email addresses to me when you get a chance (bronaghcheetham01@googlemail.com) cheers
John GreeneMay 20 2010, 11:40pmHi Bronagh,
johnnygreeney@yahoo.com
cheers
Diarmuid O'ColmainMay 23 2010, 11:20pmMina damer och herrar, buachailli agus cailini, killar och tjejer,

The Brockagh race route is the essence of simplicity. The race is in two main parts - first, a section on wide, forest roads; then onto the open mountain, up well-defined tracks, skirting around the East Top of Brockagh but not going up to the peak at 470m; and ending up on the top of Brockagh proper (557m). The return route is the reverse of the outward route.

The race route is very straightforward so there will be minimal marking provided. Keep on the obvious tracks straight ahead generally except where otherwise marked e.g. one point on the route from East Top to Brockagh proper where there is a left fork to be taken, which is less prominent than the right fork.

Route marking will be provided as follows:
About 600m. from the start (feels like more than that), on joining the Wicklow Way there is a crossroads where we continue straight ahead, This will be marked on the outward and return jouneys.

About 1.4k from the start, we turn right off the Wicklow Way at a junction and this will be marked. After about a further 220 metres or so, we turn left off the forest road through a gate onto the open mountain - this will be marked.

Then, much further on (at least 1.5k further), there will be some tape guiding you to avoid East Top and go straight for Brockagh Mountain.

Then there is a left fork a further 600m or so on, to be taken on the way from East Top to Brockagh Mountain proper, whch will be marked.

Almost finally, the top of Brockagh Mountain - the turnaround point will also be marked - there may or may not be a marshall,but use your common sense and turn around here.

On the way down, there is a minor risk of someone inadvertently taking a left fork so the correct (right) fork will be marked.

There will be no other marking - no 'continuity' marking; no paths blocked off - where there is a junction, follow the red and white tape.

Diarmuid O'Colmain

oh87 24one3303
Alan KilbrideMay 25 2010, 3:14pmHey,

I stuck my car in the car pool section and I seem to have 1 seat accepted. I haven't received any mails / info so if that was you, maybe send me a mail to confirm on IMRAatAlanKilbirde.com

Go Team!
Kevin EnglishMay 25 2010, 9:39pmHi Alan,that wa sme that accepted the seat.
I am looking to be up as early as possible to the race to help out.
I can meet you in Lucan,
cheers,
kevin.
085 725 0728
Kevin EnglishMay 25 2010, 9:40pmHi Alan,that wa sme that accepted the seat.
I am looking to be up as early as possible to the race to help out.
I can meet you in Lucan,
cheers,
kevin.
085 725 0728
Kevin EnglishMay 25 2010, 9:41pmHi Alan,that wa sme that accepted the seat.
I am looking to be up as early as possible to the race to help out.
I can meet you in Lucan,
cheers,
kevin.
085 725 0728
Colm HillMay 25 2010, 10:39pmWhere does the junior course turn back?
Diarmuid O'ColmainMay 25 2010, 11:17pmJunior turnaround for U18, U16, U14 will be approximately at the point where a track forks off to the right to go up to Brockagh East Top. There will be a marshall at this point which represents a total distance of approx 5.5km with a climb of about 350m.

If there are any U12s a turnaround point will be decided on the night.

Diarmuid (Course Marker) - subject to approval of Race Director.
Brenda MalleyMay 26 2010, 12:42amCan you tell me what time you expect the course will be marked. I'm a very slow runner and hope to start early if that's ok, as soon as course is marked.
Thanks, Brenda Malley
diarmuid O'ColmainMay 26 2010, 8:35amBrenda

Course will be marked by latest 6.00 pm but have a chat with me before you set off, as marking will be minimal.

Diarmuid
Bronagh CheethamMay 26 2010, 9:22amthats fine, thanks Diarmuid
Bronagh CheethamMay 26 2010, 9:23amthats fine re junior route, thanks Diarmuid
Bronagh CheethamMay 26 2010, 9:39amAngela, I just your name on the volunteer list, if you can send me your email address, I'll send you relevant details re this eve. if you can be down for 6 that would be great. have enough volunteers now, thanks all.
Kevin O'RiordanMay 27 2010, 12:51amGot the issue with the results sorted anyway. Results are now up.

-Kevin.
Alan AylingMay 27 2010, 11:20amGreat race last night, good conditions for it too. Lovely springy ground. Well done to the organisers for the race and for dealing with the stress of laptop issues.

Good race report from Alan Collins, really describes the battle we had. Rarely do they last so long, usually one combatant or the other will calve after a few minutes, this fight went all the way.

Bring on Scarr & Sorrell, the other two open mountain classics. And maybe one day the eco-nazis will all be wiped out by natural selection or something and we can have the Glasnamullan race again...
bronagh cheethamMay 27 2010, 11:24amthanks for that Kevin, much appreciated.
Mick HanneyMay 27 2010, 11:33amAnother exceptionally organised IMRA event. Thanks RD and volunteers.

I've mixed feelings about the Brockagh route though. I love the open mountain track, when its springy like last night, or even in the mud of other years. I hate the 2k trail up and down. Less trail, more mountain is what I'd like to see. I wouldn't want to change routes for change sake but I'd like to see more of the hills in the hill runs? Scarr is pretty damn perfect for instance. We've a trail league for trails after all.

What do others think?
Brian O'MearaMay 27 2010, 11:40amGreat race alright, but I'm all for less trail and more mountain. More hills in the hill runs!!
Colm HillMay 27 2010, 11:42amI agree with you mick 110% - more bog and heather!

Its the Irish MOUNTAIN running association - not the Irish trail running association.

I know that others would say that mountain races abroad are all on trails but last time I checked we don't have an alpine range on our island.

Look to the UK, most of there races are up and down steep grassy/muddy/rocky slopes - our terrain in pretty similar.

From a descending point of view its so much more fun to burn it down through mud etc as you can just floor it - if you fall you bounce and still keep the majority of skin and limbs - take a spill on a gravel track and you'll know all about it!
Rene BorgMay 27 2010, 11:51amClub results overall and for the night are up on the Leinster League and Brockagh page respectively.

Congratulations to Barry Minnock for knocking almost a minute off Garry Crossan's old record.
Brendan LawlorMay 27 2010, 11:59amAlan

I am currently negotiating with locals (re parking) for possible Glasnamullan race in 2011. It will have to be early in the season (by mid May) due to farm/silage issues which may or may not suit committee next year. Eco issues will not feature as route will avoid the very eroded front track up Djouce. It will feature a visit to War Hill and muck, sweat and tears can be guaranteed
Alan AylingMay 27 2010, 12:29pmBrendan,

Fabulous news, great work there.

And Mick, yes, also right behind you on this. We need a campaign to ban fire roads, especially fire road finishes. Not so bad for the first bit of a race to spread the field a little. But misery at the end. Maybe we can make up some placards - "Down with this sort of thing" and the like.

Though I could live with the bit of fire road at the end of Glasnamullan. Worth it for that grassy descent of deadliness.
Alan CollinsMay 27 2010, 12:58pmAs a sufferer of fire road misery I know where you guys are coming from and I'm sure everyone prefers open mountain. We still have to get up and down in a reasonable time though so I'm prepared to be realistic about the logistics of that.
Mick HanneyMay 27 2010, 1:33pmGranted some trail bits are unavoidable. But, in the case of last nights race you had 4k out of the 10+ that were pure trail. If there isn't an option to extend the hill section and minimise the trail bit without making logistically difficult to get to the start/end then I'm sure that other hills could offer a better trail/hill balance. We don't always have to run the same routes.
Rene BorgMay 27 2010, 1:40pmI think the overall discussion of trail vs. mountain is a good one to have, however, I feel Brockagh is being somewhat victimised when one looks at the amount of trail on other courses this year, particularly the ones close to Dublin (Howth, Tibradden, Hellfire this year, races like Powerscourt Uphill and Corrig last year contains a long trail section) and some of the pure trail races where on the calendar in 2008/2009 (Scalp). Trooperstown too will include significant trail sections if the route is identical to the Winter League ones (and it's hard not to start at the car park with the LL numbers and avoid this).

If a decision was made to revise the balance more towards hillier routes and less towards trailier in future seasons, my hope would be that these routes would be looked at well before the (in my opinion time-less classic) that is Brockagh.

The defense for Brockagh rests ;-)
Kevin O'RiordanMay 27 2010, 1:41pmI think Brockagh's a very nice mountain myself and its somewhat unique fast grassy descent makes it worth keeping imo. But I do agree about cutting out the trail. We could start and finish the race at the crossroads (http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=53.01531&mlon=-6.3088&zoom=16&layers=B000FTF) and there'd still be enough fire trail to spread the field and funnel the descenders but not so much as to demoralise everyone (That 2km run at the end was depressing).
Kevin O'RiordanMay 27 2010, 2:04pmGood point Rene about some races on the calendar being nearly exclusively trail. I think you just notice the trail more after you've fought and gained places out on the open mountain only to find yourself dropping places once you hit the 2km stretch of fire road at the end. I'm still bitter after Mick Hanney and yourself picked me off on the short stretch of fire road at the end of Scarr last year :-)

I think Prince William's seat is another good race where you really notice the drop in placings as you're trying to get home on the fire road at the end.
Karen MooreMay 27 2010, 2:58pmAs a new member this year (and loving it) I agree with the "less trail more mountain" view....You just can't go hell bent for leather at the end on those fire roads (unless you're totally fearless!) for fear of losing your outer skin in a fall or worse. Having said that absolutely loved most of last nights course - top of the world views and fabulous underfoot on the short grass turf/peat. Thanks to all the organisers and volunteers. Roll on Scarr.
Diarmuid O'ColmainMay 27 2010, 3:33pmMost/all of our league races (including Scarr) are trail races on hills. Some (but not all) of the champoionship races are mountain races. And our trail races are trail races on the foothills of hills! Personally I think this mix is absolutely fine. I love the fast firetrail finishes, and the people manning the finish really need as flat a finish as possible. And strangely enough, at the end of every race, I often hear people saying 'that was a great route'.

Although Kevin's suggestion to start Brockagh at the cross road on the forest track looks good to me, realistically our WL and LL will probably continue to be primarily trail races on hills. But maybe those who feel most strongly about this could identify alternatives to adopt other routes that would be more mountainy for the leagues, bearing in mind the need for parking, accessibility, ease of marking etc.
Alan AylingMay 27 2010, 4:25pmOf course there will have to be trails involved. The only race I can remember that was pretty much 100 % free of any trail was the Nephin race (may it rest in peace). The problem seems to be with long stretches of fire road, particularly at the end of races.

For the Trail League it makes sense to have lots of fire road. Likewise the Winter League, despite abundances of fire road some races work very well (Carrick, Annacurra, Trooperstown). For my part anyway, I'd like to see less of the long fire road finishes where practical. For example:

Brockagh: race as is, except finish at the crossroads; on the way down use the "shortcut" across the zig-zags as Diarmuid told us we weren't allowed to do last night;

Trooperstown: same route out, on way back from tarmac road at the top don't take first fire road on right, but keep on main fire road for another while, at a certain point there's a tidy singletrack on the right, a couple of options lead directly down to the finish from here; way more enjoyable than the winter route back, which is a drag (and I say that having come up with that route);

Corrig: obviously it's different this year with the extension to Seefingan, but how about returning by the outward route?;

Prince Willies: much as I love this one, the fire road is pretty desperate; another candidate for returning by the outward route;

Howth: don't anyone dare diss this race, it's deadly even if it is on a lot of trails, as a Northsider I find it offensive that anyone would even contemplate slagging off this race;

Hellfire: do us all a favour and drop this race. From a height. Pleeeaaaase!! We'll come up with a better one, whatever it takes. By the sound of it Brendan is working on it already.
Mick HanneyMay 27 2010, 6:45pmI like the idea of people suggesting alternative routes. Lets start a route thread soon perhaps that the calendar builders for next year can peruse from. Having been involved in the calendar this year the problem comes from people saying such and such is a classic, we can't drop that.. and before you know it the calendar is 90% the same as last year. That can be good and bad. Personally I think a bit of variety spices things up a bit. And Alan, I agree, hellfire must go or go in its current form as its too damned short.


Colm HillMay 27 2010, 6:52pmDiarmuid O'Colmain "ease of marking...."

How about, we don't mark any of them :)
Rene BorgMay 28 2010, 8:34amMick, it's funny you should mention longer races. We've got an opinion-piece coming up on MST on a related topic. Will post a link when it goes live.

On the flat bit at the end of Brockagh, I regard it as a feature rather than a bug. When I first ran the race in 2007, I remember coming down the fire-road fast but the moment I hit the flat my leg turns to jelly and I dangled helplessly for the last bit as runners past me out.

I took two lessons from the day:

- I needed to develop the leg strength to handle the effects of long downhill running without dying on the flat
- I needed to develop more raw flat speed to go with whatever I had on the ups and the downs

Today I feel that race and others like it, helped me understand what I need to work on to become a more well-rounded runner. Wouldn't something be lost if all races fitted into a very specific template?
Jason KehoeMay 28 2010, 10:03amSummit times, positions and places gained/lost is now on the reports page.

Cheers,
Jason
Diarmuid O'ColmainMay 28 2010, 10:22amSome good suggestions by Alan. Comments on each suggestion:
Brockagh - inclined to agree with moving the finish. On cutting through the zigzags on the way down - this is a good idea although slightly complicates the marking and/or race instructions, not a big problem though.

Trooperstown - the single track Alan suggests is definitely a good idea; there are also other possibilities on the mountain that could be explored using the orienteering map.

Corrig: Alan suggests 'return by the outward route' Yes, this brings a nice downhill ride into play but at the price of additional fire road. The existing return leg has a nice downhill segment also. So I would leave well enough alone.

Prince Willie's agree with Alan return through the forest as much as possible -detail of route would have to be looked at - it's not a case of coming back by exactly the same route (too mcuh congestion that way).

What can I say about Howth - 'Drop it from a height?' Don't blame us because you northsiders can't find a decent hill to run up! Seriously, the only thing that bothers me about any of the hill races (apart from the pain) is congestion. It is frustrating not to be able to progress due to crowds - I realize that guys like Alan and Colm would not be aware of this problem but a couple o hundred of the rest of us in a race are very aware of it. From this point of view Howth and Bray are very unsatisfactory (Prince Willie's seat isn't great either. On the other hand Howth has great variety and some technical running.

Hellfire - what is the problem!? I love this race especially this year with branches across the path. And it's a toughie - I was in the top half (actually the top 42%!) of the field and nobody near me was even close to running up the two steeper hills - and what about the lovely downhill from the house on the way home! It's a classic!

As for marking it, Colm Hill (with tongue firmly in cheek!) can take charge of search and rescue when we stop marking. In theory I'm in favour of unmarked routes; in practice given the numbers we have these days it's not on. Even with fully marked, well marshalled races people do manage to get lost.
Alan AylingMay 28 2010, 11:59amMaybe we can get C-IMRA or the Popular People's Front of Judea or whatever they're called now to adopt Hellfire...

Many's the time I have been stuck in the congestion, so I do know what it feels like. As Beavis & Butt-Head might say "Dude, this sucks!". If there are ways to ease this I'm all for them, though it's hard to see how things can be made perfectly congestion-free with the numbers running these days.

In the case of the Prince Willie's race, nothing a quick lap of Mick's field wouldn't sort out. Like the Howth field lap but not flat. Then shorten the descent to make up for it. Or add the leg out to visit the Vogons and pond-life of Knocknagun.

Simple solution for Bray: start where we finish and finish where we start.

Howth - of course it should be a terrible race in theory, I just love it. To each their own I suppose.

Can we have a LL race in the Cooleys? Just for the northsiders like. No more of a drive than Laragh.

Rene - your third lesson for that night on Brockagh: hillrunning is waaaay more fun than trail running!

Perhaps we are unwilling to change routes because of records and tradition? Wouldn't we be doing better to improve/modify the routes to suit the needs of the modern game?
Rene BorgMay 28 2010, 1:22pmAlan, I don't think records per se are the main reason for a tendency to stick with old routes so much as matters of practicality, sentimentality, and continuity (for instance I often hear people like to compare their times with previous years).

They are certainly a factor, if one looks at Carrauntoohil where the horrible last bit of the descent was kept in probably largely to preserve the legend surrounding John Lenihan's amazing records. This is a valid enough consideration, but of course it is not the only consideration.

I think there is a place for major rehashes, but I think the Committee should find a way to poll the wider membership before implementing them to avoid a scenario where opinions that appear to represent the majority (due to the forum) being implemented despite being against the views of the majority of the members. Once due diligence is served in this fashion, I personally would support any changes. Of course, this is easy for me to say, as I see races I don't like as a blessing, as removing them from my personal race calendar makes it easier to put together a sustainable calendar without sacrificing too many favourites. I appreciate many want to do them all.

I think it's reasonable to assume that a) a small minority of IMRA members post on the forums, and b) within this minority people who want change are more likely to vocalise their opinions than those who don't (after all, there'll seem little incentive in starting a debate called "let's keep things the way they are").

Back to my personal opinion on the matter at hand: I think there are many races that currently cater for those who prefer purely open mountain. I think the Leinster League has largely, and historically, constituted more of a hybrid-style of races, and thorough thought should be given to the above concerns before deviating strongly from that in the future. I think balance is important and a calendar needs a solid mixture of very short, short, medium, long and very long races in order to cater for all tastes, all skillsets and develop well-rounded runners.

Finally, I think all forms of running are fun: Track, cross, road, hill and whatever other surface. To me running is really an expressive art-form and each surface allows a different skillset to fully apply itself towards perfection. Track for instance is the embodiment of pure unconstrained speed. I see nothing boring in it, but it's certainly different from the hills.
Jim FitzharrisMay 28 2010, 3:38pmThis is a great thread which still has legs on it but I would suggest that it is hived off from the Brockagh Volunteers thread so we can find it again!