European Mountain Running Trial Championships
| Author | Date | Message |
|---|---|---|
| Brian MacMahon | Feb 9 2018, 8:02pm | Just a question regarding the European mountain running trial championships taking place 11 weeks before the European Championships. I don't remember ever competing in a championship trial (going back to 2004) as far out as 11 weeks before the championships. To my knowledge most of the championship trials of the other European countries will take place 2-4 weeks in advance. There will likely be injuries and loss of form if athletes have to peak for a trial in April and then an international championship 11 weeks later. Regards, Brian |
| Jason Kehoe | Feb 10 2018, 4:16pm | Hi Brian/Committee/Selectors, Just because something hasn't been tried before doesn't mean it wont work or shouldn't be attempted. I actually missed the announcement on the front page, I personally rarely visit that page I usually go direct to forum or event pages (my own fault). There is nothing on the events page to say which race is a trial race and the Euros / Worlds dates are not on the calendar containing details of how selection is made etc. Even on the Slievenamon event details there is no mention of it being a trial race. I had to ask someone where they saw the trial being announced. So maybe that info could be added? There are a few problems with the current situation as I see it: 1. Too short notice to peak for the trial - 9 weeks from announcement, 8 weeks if you only realised today when the trial is. To some this might sound like plenty of time but a lot of runners are just finishing their XC season and will take a week or two off (this is the last weekend for XC nationals) or just getting into their base training. At a minimum there should be 12 weeks to prep coming off a season such as cross country to be at your best IMO. 2. You are asking runners to peak again 11 weeks later, yet only giving 9 weeks notice to be peaked for the trial race. The big risk is that 11 weeks is a long time for runners, a LOT can change! Injuries happen frequently which could decimate your selected team or have them less fit going into the championships than the trial. You would also have to have a larger pool of reserves and hope they would also be willing to be on standby and in good condition for Euros and worlds just in case. You also have to rely on your selected runners being honest about not being in top shape come championship time. What's to be done if a selected runner is clearly in poor form and are being well beaten by runners who just missed selection at the trial? That's a can of worms situation. What is good: 1. The committee / selectors are trying something new to find a good compromise. 2. The course looks great, it's part of a league which doesn't clash with Irish Champs so plenty of runners available, that is if competitors in ML/SEL dont choose to abstain from that particular race as it will likely be difficult for them to get a good result for their league score i.e keep their powder dry for the next race (this will always be a risk combining the trial in any league race though so probably a mute point). 2. If mountain running is your main game, and had you had enough time to peak for the trial and make the team, you could go back to base training with a clear focus on peaking again 11 weeks later for the Euro's / Worlds. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't the committee / selectors may say. I think the selection process needed some changes due to other Irish Championship clashes and participation rates etc. Last years Donard trial experiment was as good a start as any IMO and I'm sure feedback was taken on board after that. But I think plenty of notice should be given for these big events (trials) and maybe even some amount of consultation with runners who have consistently made teams in previous years (such as the highly experienced Brian McM above) regarding the logistics from the athletes point of view (maybe this was done!). Otherwise you could say, "This is the way it is, like it or lump it" and let's see how this year goes and learn from it again next year. To conclude, had I been focusing on running the trials this year I would have been happy enough to try the current format, IF there was more notice given on the trial date (4-5 months). Thanks, Jason |
| Brian MacMahon | Feb 10 2018, 5:04pm | Jason et al, I think your reference to the trials course last year in Slieve Donard being a good start is highly debatable/contentious. The course was treacherous on the decent and in no way represented the course conditions in the world championships a month or so later. Myself and Ian Conroy weren't able to make the worlds team (we were aiming for automatic selection) but couldn't make the team on the day. The selectors did give us the benefit of the doubt and fortunately we were the first 2 scores on Irish team in World Championships. Saying that the committee have a tough task and I'm sure the selcted trial course will reflect the terrain of the European and World Championships. |
| Jason Kehoe | Feb 10 2018, 5:23pm | Brian, This is a side story of your original post and may detract from the important point you initially raised. 'It was a good start' as in it was something new, it solved a few issues, while creating other issues you mention (I nearly broke my hand on the descent!), but importantly it wasn't the same old story with the trials which has long been a bone of contention with the general IMRA membership who funds our International teams. If anyone scrolls through the IMRA forum going back 13 years regarding trials, selection, courses, event timings and our representatives you will see a common theme. They seem to have taken on feedback from last year's trial with this years course, yet there are still more teething problems. Hopefully they will get there soon enough with a suitable solution/compromise. Jason |
| Jeff Fitzsimons | Feb 11 2018, 9:24pm | Hi lads, let me try address all the points as best I can on behalf of the selection committee. Brian, in relation to the timing of the trial there’s a few points to make. IMRA spend a huge percentage of the annual turnover on sending international athletes to championship events. By far the biggest element of that expenditure is on flights, and booking flights a few weeks from travel is not the most affordable way to do it. There is no guarantee that all the athletes who are selected will be flying from an Irish airport to the event as some are not based in Ireland, so while we can try to hedge the cost of flights as much as possible with group bookings we do have to see who turns up at a trial and if they are of a standard that justifies sending a team before we can book travel. We take the spending of members race fees seriously, so by having trials earlier it hopefully means we spend less, and can maybe send more runners if there are enough of a sufficient standard that qualify. Also, by holding the trial earlier and qualifying earlier the runners selected can focus on the event with more certainty. Finally, a small point but one the regularly causes us problems, getting hold of kit of the right size with 2 weeks notice has not always proven easy for us! These may sound to you like issues you don’t care about, you just want to turn up, run, qualify and travel. We have a lot more to consider and have to find a balance between what is best for potential runners and IMRA membership as a whole. Jason, on your 2 numbered points. The bad. 1.I think that’s a valid point. But we have been having these arguments ourselves on the committee around when, where and how of selection. If I am involved next year I will be sure to take this feedback on board. 2.Similar feedback to your first point applies. The possibility of reserve selections for teams is a possibility to cover off the risk of injury of course. The good. 1.We are trying to change. We are trying to expand the pool of runners, to move the trials around to expose more people to the potential of international selection. Change never comes easy and it’s easy to do the same thing. I would rather be criticised for trying something new than continuing with a model that was not universally approved of previously. 2.Good to hear you like the look of the course. I think it’s important we present a mix of courses in our trials and don’t limit ourselves to fire roads of Wicklow. 3.It would be great to see some dedicated mountain runners come through and make the selection. Ultimately whoever is quicker over the course on the day will put the best case for selection forward. In relation to Donard last year, the course is a great one in terms of profile when you look at what the international events tend to present. I also think it’s fair to say that the standard on Donard every year is very high, with regular podium finishing IMRA runners doing well to make the top ten. It’s good to challenge the status quo, to get as competitive a field as possible for a trial so that a better view of the quality of the performance of any potential runners can be gained. The ambition is to expand the pool of runners, and moving the trials around is intended to do this. Brian, we have taken on board the feedback about the course on Donard. But I do have to point out that Donard is not a mountain that has never been run before. The conditions are well known to Irish hill runners. Despite this I saw experienced runners turn up in road racing shoes on the day. Any course is treacherous when such little thought is put into the such as core aspect as shoe selection! This is mountain running, not track racing. The full details for the selection events will be posted on the event pages in the coming days. Any further questions/comments send them on. But be warned, we spend enough time arguing between ourselves on the committee to reach the best balance possible for selection, so please don’t just give us the negative feedback, we do a lot of that to ourselves! |
| Brian MacMahon | Feb 11 2018, 9:50pm | Jeff, Thanks for responding with well considered replies. I don’t understand the task of the committee as I had a lot of interaction with Gerry Brady in his tenure. Keep up the good work! Rgds, Brian |
| Rene Borg | Feb 21 2018, 12:06pm | On a related note to this post: will a document about the selection process for the Europeans and the Worlds similar to those posted by the Selection Commmittee for the longer distance events, be posted ahead of the event as well? |
| Robbie Williams | Feb 21 2018, 6:27pm | Hi Rene.. Criteria of Selection: Selection will be carried out on the following basis. 1. Performance in any trial race held by the association. Target times will be set for trial races, those runners completing the race quicker than this time will be considered for selection according to the order they finish. Runners will be considered for selection in order of their finishing position on the day, with those finishing 1st being considered 1st for selection. Achieving the target time is not a guarantee of selection. Where no runners complete the race within the target time the selection committee may, at their discretion, select athletes who ran the trial in order to complete a team, develop promising newcomers to hill running or account for particularly tough weather or course conditions on the day of the trial. 2. Performance in alternative races to the trial race will be considered only where the athlete has contacted the selectors in advance, via email to selection@imra.ie, to inform them of their inability to attend the trial race and agreed with the selection committee an alternative race to be used to judge form at the time of the trial race. 3. In all circumstances the selection committee will have the option to select full teams, individual athletes or no athletes for a championship. When making final selections the selection committee will consider the panel of runners available, the financial backing available to support any athletes that may qualify for selection and the potential for success of a team made up from the available runners. Only when the funding is available and athletes of sufficient standard are available will individuals or teams be selected. |
| Robbie Williams | Feb 21 2018, 6:27pm | Hi Rene.. Criteria of Selection: Selection will be carried out on the following basis. 1. Performance in any trial race held by the association. Target times will be set for trial races, those runners completing the race quicker than this time will be considered for selection according to the order they finish. Runners will be considered for selection in order of their finishing position on the day, with those finishing 1st being considered 1st for selection. Achieving the target time is not a guarantee of selection. Where no runners complete the race within the target time the selection committee may, at their discretion, select athletes who ran the trial in order to complete a team, develop promising newcomers to hill running or account for particularly tough weather or course conditions on the day of the trial. 2. Performance in alternative races to the trial race will be considered only where the athlete has contacted the selectors in advance, via email to selection@imra.ie, to inform them of their inability to attend the trial race and agreed with the selection committee an alternative race to be used to judge form at the time of the trial race. 3. In all circumstances the selection committee will have the option to select full teams, individual athletes or no athletes for a championship. When making final selections the selection committee will consider the panel of runners available, the financial backing available to support any athletes that may qualify for selection and the potential for success of a team made up from the available runners. Only when the funding is available and athletes of sufficient standard are available will individuals or teams be selected. |
| Sarah McCormack | Feb 22 2018, 12:16pm | Always good to question how things are done and look at ways of doing them better. If we are looking at what other successful teams do it shouldn't be ignored that team USA are holding trials for the Worlds ten weeks before the event. If we are to look at what other successful runners do - take John Lenihan or Angela Mudge, both former gold medalists at the Worlds - both excelled on technical terrain. One would be hard-pressed to name a mountain running medallist on an up-and-down course who wasn't highly skilled on rough ground. Mountain running is about testing yourself over challenging routes. While many mountain races are runable in part, they always contain treacherous ground too. It's not just trail running on a slope. This has been shown in the past on numerous occasions when road runners have been selected to the Irish Mountain Running team without having had to do the trial. Having the trial as a pre-existing IMRA race is fantastic because it encourages more attendance at the trial and hopefully encourages up-and-coming runners to aim for selection down the line, particularly with regard to the women's trial which tends to suffer from low attendance. |
| Leo Mahon | Apr 2 2018, 1:03pm | Hi all I would like to remind all intending athletes the closing date for entry into the European Trial race is Saturday 7th April 6pm There will be no cash taken on day. All athletes must be members of IMRA or NIMRA Members of NIMRA must inform us of there intention to run so we can assign them an IMRA number so they can enter the race any queries to mahonleo55 @gmail .com or 0868135994 Cheers Leo Mahon |
