Are LL races getting overly technical?
| Author | Date | Message |
|---|---|---|
| Barry Minnock | Jun 22 2018, 10:09pm | I’m a hill running fan. Nothing better than seeing the highest hill in the area and conquering it. If there is a choice of a path up or open mountain, I for one will go for the path. Obviously most do as otherwise there wouldn't be a path. You still enjoy the mountain & the great outdoors. This week I ran Howth. Most of course is good, making the most of limited options. For some reason, that isn’t immediately apparent to me, there is a complex section added to the end of the race over the last few years. I took one wrong turn on this section (poor marking & unfortunately misdirected by walker) and ended up falling a number of meters - very lucky not to break bones, thanks to shrubs which broke my fall. Why have this section over dangerous terrain at the end? The course is advertised as 8km. It was actually 9k, so the end section was unnecessary. This post is not specifically about Howth. It's actually not close to being the worst offender. I’ve seen the trend in many Leinster League races of replacing runnable courses with technical/orienteering-type courses/sections. The mindset appears to be to add hardship & treachery to slow decent runners down. Forget about your mandatory jackets on small hills in the summer - the real risk in Leinster League races is a serious fall (which ironically is more likely due to loose jackets around waists). I know purest folk will think I’m a soft road fairy. But I believe we should differentiate mid-week league to championship racing. Leinster League racing should in my view be on reasonably runnable courses designed to transition runners into the sport and welcome newbies to the beauty of running in the hills. The Leinster League wasn’t broken, but we're ‘fixing’ it. The Munster Summer League remains predominately runnable. Wednesday night races in Leinster are becoming daunting. You can forget about encouraging people to do championship racing if your easier races are overly technical. If races are on off-path technical sections with no obvious purpose (i.e. not to top of a hill), then marking has to be spot on. When you're racing, it is about split-second decisions. Marking needs to follow the guides outlined in the volunteer section. Leaders went wrong 3 times in Howth. I know the answer is for me to volunteer & do more course marking :) In my defence I've done my fair share over the years. Perhaps I’m presenting a minority view here. If so, I'll happily crawl back under my shell :) |
| Jeff Swords | Jun 22 2018, 10:30pm | For me the more technical races are the more enjoyable, and they aren't designed to slow down the faster runners, but give a bit of variety over the course of a race and test the full range of a runners ability. Re. Howth, the end loop wasn't the added on bit, it was the first k or so. The last loop has been around a long time, and it's a spot which people go wrong every time. The trail league serves as the introduction to off road racing and the summer league is now the step up from that. There's even more technical races coming up, Ballinastoe for example. I'm all for technical courses, even though I had a tumble on one of the easier sections on Wednesday. |
| Gordon Place | Jun 22 2018, 10:34pm | It's always annoying to go wrong and have done it once or twice, but have to say I thought Howth was great. I was just behind runners on two occasions that went, or where about to go wrong but for me giving them a shout. On both occasions the way was clearly marked and I don't know how they could have missed it, on one occasion with someone just in front of them leading the way. Just eye off the ball. Obviously the leader has got to be a little extra vigilant but I thought it was marked well. |
| John J Barry | Jun 22 2018, 10:47pm | To be fair to IMRA, some route changes were forced on them due to national park rules banning up/down routes such as Scarr. The route is poorer because of the change |
| Rachel Cinnsealach | Jun 22 2018, 10:51pm | That is the reason I do hill runs, to be out in the hills on rough ground. Personally I love the technical sections. I would be so disappointed if these bits were taken out. |
| Barry Minnock | Jun 22 2018, 11:04pm | You're right, this isn't about Howth. It was very well organised and the start was a great idea to prevent bottleneck issues. The marking was tricky to follow, but that's understandable. Believe me, I was extremely vigilant toward the end. It was an unfortunate incident where a walker insisted I was going wrong. I also know the end section is not new - I did the race it last year. But it is new from when I last was running LL races regularly :) Perhaps I'm overly critical on account of my fall, but it could have been a serious accident so it is better to comment that remain silent if it can potentially avoid a future incident. All these races are already technical. I like technical running with a purpose. There just seems to be sections in several races now (e.g. Bray, Carrick, Ballinastoe, Howth) that are designed to add hazards without purpose. I'm obviously in the minority. The roadie who ventures into the hills on occasions. I do however wish we could attract more of the running majority to join these amazing hill runs. There are very few races left I could recommend to an off-road newbie. I know there trail league is there, but that is only a few races. |
| Shane Enright | Jun 23 2018, 8:41pm | I am not familiar with recent routes, my last IMRA race having been in 2013, but here goes. Everyone is born with something like a 'navigational IQ'. This means you can get better at map-reading with learning and practice, but it probably means there's a ceiling on how good you will ever be. Most mountain runners have a navigational ability well above average, but even within this sample there's a wide variance. I used to see people who were much better runners than me make what I thought to be very basic nav mistakes. And a lot of people simply followed the leader. FWIW people who consistently win races are both very good athletes AND very good navigators. I also think that within route planners there is probably a cognitive bias called 'the curse of knowledge' effect. Planners are generally better navigators than most runners. Planners most likely think that the competitors can navigate as well as they can, while in reality the average will be a bit worse. I'm not sure what this means for the original question. For runners it's probably to estimate your own navigational ability, cut it in half, and plan on that basis. For planners it's probably wise to think about the hardest part on the course, and then mentally test it against the worse navigators you know. |
| Jeff Swords | Jun 23 2018, 10:13pm | Why plan or test a race against the worse navigators you know? Shouldn't competitors seek to rise to the challenge rather than an event stoop to the lowest common denominator? |
| Barry Murray | Jun 23 2018, 11:30pm | I don't think this is about navigation lads. Barry is talking about "overly techical" LL races. Barry - as you can see, you are complaining to the choir here ! I think the majority of IMRA runners prefer the more technical stuff... you see it as "hazards designed without a purpose"... we see it as fun and a skill to master. What IMRA races provide for us is the fact that there is a wider skill set required. It rewards those with these technical skills that might not be just fast runners. You make a good point about attracting newbies. We do have the trail league, only 3 x races I know which could be expanded. However, you are not a "newbie" and Leinster League races are for mountain runners, not newbies ! Nor are they supposed to be for fast road guys ;-) It would be like us coming to a road 10k race or 1/2 and asking for the route to go single track, over rocks, with steep ascents and descents. This would allow the likes of me to gain places and time on those that are naturally faster than me. I guess this is the direction of your complaint. If so, all I can say is that LL races are for mountain runners. And mountain running requires a different skill set to road running. Running on technical sections is one of them. To remove that, would be removing part of the essence of what many of us love about mountain running races. I know some guys who would actually prefer if there was even more technical sections then there already is in these LL races ! |
| Rachel Cinnsealach | Jun 23 2018, 11:44pm | I think it is “newbie friendly”. A girl posted a while ago asking if she’d be OK, I replied saying once she could do 10 km on flat, she’d be grand. I looked the results, she raced and she was grand. IMRA caters for all ages and all levels. We even have “early starts” where people can start before the race begins!! It’s not rock climbing, people with less experience just need to go slower until they learn the skills. Jason Kehoe learnt pretty well. |
| Barry Minnock | Jun 24 2018, 1:04am | I'm unlikely to get backup now :) Guess everyone here obviously has the same mindset ... I’m not looking for overly sanitised races. To reiterate, I like technical hill running so long as it has a purpose. Carrauntoohil & Croagh Patrick are classics. I just feel new courses/segments of the LL is becoming a bit like runamuck / tough mudder, having obstacles for the sake of it. The goal appears to be to find the nearest obstacle. We should throw a few bales of hay and a few tyres in for the craic :) I brought this up as I believe the last km of Howth is unnecessarily dangerous. My fall could have been a nasty, although admittedly I was off course at the time :) I went off course, because the actual course looked like a dead end to a walker. I believe the IMRA mindset is now different to other mountain running associations around Europe. I think there is room for balance here – a good spread between runnable & technical races. My concern is that all races, or a least changes/new races, are now towards the technical end of the spectrum. We’re not getting runners of quality into the sport, which to me is disappointing. The way things are, I could not recommend any runner with talent to run in the LL. The policy is to slow people down rather than letting people run free at pace in the hills, which to me is an absolute joy. There is a small navigational element to my post. There isn't an obvious sense of direction or indeed sense to some races. If the route is to go off in a weird direction, then the marking has to be spot on. It is a little harder for the leaders traversing at a slightly higher pace, so they suffer more than most – boo hoo I hear you say :) So I’ll crawl back under my shell now. Perhaps I’m not pure IMRA runner, which is obviously a technical running club. I’ll still run on Wednesdays, so I’m obviously not overly put out :) One thing I have in common with the rest of ye is I am happy every day I can go for a jaunt in the hills … |
| Mick Hanney | Jun 24 2018, 11:06am | Given the variety of races there is something for everyone. From my perspective, with Downshill down as the last race of the LL, I'll be looking at it to see how I change bits of it from being an out-and-out trail race, but that will have limitations. Barry, would be great to see you down at Annagh hill sometime - you'd have great fun :-) |
| Barry Murray | Jun 24 2018, 11:41am | to give you some back up, I agree with the aspect of navigation and course marking for league races. It is the small minority that are leading at the front though. And most courses are marked very well, it is simply like you said... when out front racing, it is easy to miss a turn if there are lots of twists etc. But really this is part and parcel. And again, its the small minority ! Also agree on developing talent. However, Jason Kehoe was a hockey player and then won IC. I think Des Kennedy comes from a road running background too. Some good youngsters currently making good progress too from road backgrounds. Talent for mountain running does take time to develop and coming out, taking wrong turns, falling, getting passed out on downhills etc... is all part of the training ! I don't think its fair to call it a technical running club. It's just that the M in IMRA.... stands for mountain, which means technical sections ! |
| Paul Gillen | Jun 24 2018, 12:12pm | Just to throw a spanner in the works... Speaking as a complete newbie, Howth was only my second race and I didn't think it was overly technical, there were spots where it was hard going with a few steep descents and some obstetrical to jump but nothing to put a new person off. As for the navigation, I did miss a marker, myself and someone else went the wrong way at one point, they could have been better / more visible but I'd happily put that down to a learning experience on my part. |
| Barry Minnock | Jun 25 2018, 5:30pm | Good builds & debate. We do not have many athletes who will be competing in Euro/World champs level entering LL/IC races. This is because the type of races is chalk & cheese. Very few Irish races prepare you for international races, which primarily test your strength & pace. There is obviously a technical component - it is about the emphasis. I get the affinity with challenging courses & the difficulty to organise courses, so I'm may have over emphasised my points to provoke a response :) Just frustrating at times to be in a great running location, but yet end up running through crap. @Mick: Will added to my calendar ;) |
