Have you seen or heard of any scramblers or quads endangering someone in the last few months?
| Author | Date | Message |
|---|---|---|
| Moire O'Sullivan | Feb 25 2009, 2:08pm | The DMI is urgently requiring any reports of scramblers or quads endangering someone in the last few months in the Dublin Mountains. If you know of any such incidents, can you please contact either myself (moireosullivan at yahoo.co.uk) or Mark Dalton as soon as possible. Thanks. |
| Tim Grummell | Feb 27 2009, 9:01pm | Hmmm, what is the general opinion on scramblers or quads using the mountains? I am involved in motocross and race only on proper tracks but know people who ride up the mountains regularly. They always try to avoid any poeple or hassle and if they do come across walkers they slow down and try to avoid any hassle for the walkers. Illegal riding is a problem for us also, it is giving all offroad biking a bad name and has effected our chances of gettin proper legal tracks. |
| John MacEnri | Feb 28 2009, 12:39am | Mmmmm..... brave man. Probably a forum on which you could a provoke a shed load of negative reaction. But I'm glad Moire raised the topic, and that you've replied as a paticipant in both camps. A few years ago I think this was a significant problem. I can recall at least 3 occasions when I went with my kids up 3 Rock and was at best irritated by the noise level of nearby scramblers or at worst (one occasion) aggessively threatened by one guy on a scrambler for suggesting that he take his sport elsewhere where there were less walkers on the same trails. It took 2 years before one of my kids would go for walks on 3 rock after that. But saying that, I've been up there loads in the last couple of years and can't say I've encountered any at all. Personally I dislike scramblers and quad bikes but I can perfectly well understand the attraction of the sport. It's simply that they are incompatible with the other users of the same tracks/trails. But maybe mountain bikes are also? Ok, they don't make noise, but they are dangerous to pedestrians.(I am guilty of MTBing on trails that walkers use a lot) What it boils down to is the need for tracks/trails that are designated as allowed for scramblers/quad bikers, MTB and walkers/runners only. I don't even mean "only", just that for a trail where scramblers or MTB are allowed, others should beware. I heard recently that the area of land in front of Djouce forest which was used by scramblers for quite some time has now been denied them. This seems a pity as it was somewhere where no walkers, runners or MTBs were interested in going. Why was that changed? I think there's enough space out there for us all. But scramblers/quads have to be kept off certain areas for safety and environmental reasons. For instance it really bugged me the other day to be running over one of the newly constructed paths near Fairy Castle to see badly gouged tracks into the relatively soft material. Surely such tracks aren't a challenge for scramblers anyway so why do some travel over them? In answer to Moire's query, I have seen a big change in the area I frequent most, being Fairy Castle/3 Rock and surround. There seem to be far less scramblers there than there used to be. John |
| Mark d'Alton | Mar 6 2009, 7:19pm | Tim, I would say that your friends' tactics (slowing down and being polite) would work well but for two unfortunate facts about scramblers. Firstly they emit an apalling amount of noise - hence one scrambler in a quiet valley can spoil a whole afternoon for a hundred people. Secondly, as anyone who has been in Wicklow recently will attest, they cause shocking environmental danage. (And I'm very disappointed, but not surprised, to hear that they are already damaging one of the trails the DMP has put in place.) Hence, in my opinion, they have no place in the uplands. Which is not to say that they have no place at all - in fact it would be better to provide them (the casual non-affiliated mob who are not at all polite - I have twice had stones thrown at me for having the timerity to suggest that they should go elsewhere) with somewhere to do their thing. The DMP are engaged in trying to find such a spot - sadly, due to the economic you-know-what and to planning requirements this will take some time. John, MTBers with manners are no danger to pedestrians - the DMI are trying hard to have MTB trails integrated (on level and uphill) with walking and other trails - such measures will succeeed and enhance everyones experience ('hello, how are you - that's a steep hill' ....'effin right it is!') as long as bikers adhere to a strict code of conduct. |
| shane bradley | Oct 27 2012, 8:36pm | hi i am an off road motorbiker. me and about 8 friends use the dublin mountins every now and again. we are nice to hillwalkers when we past them. or if small kids are their we will stop and turn off our engines. we just want to do our sport. and not cause a problem to anyone. we respect the mountins as much as anyone else. and we have often picked up litter that other people have dumped and taken it home to put in the bin. only last week the garda stopped us and told us we are not allowed drive around the forests anymore. we left but what does that leave for us now. we are willing to sit down and talk about this and mabey have some place in wicklow set aside for us to use. just telling us your not allowed in any part of wicklow is not the answer to our problem. its not going to solve anything just make things worse for everyone. can someone help us. many thanks shane, |
| CaitlÃn Bent | Oct 28 2012, 11:19pm | Tim & Shane, I do not wish to sound patronizing, but do you realize why people go walking in the mountains? Generally it is to escape the noise and pollution of the towns, and perhaps the chance of spotting, or even hearing some wildlife. And to be quite honest, it bugs the hell out of me to encounter motorized vehicles tearing up the fragile earth oblivious to their surroundings. Perhaps if you take a walk in the hills you might understand what you are missing and learn to slow down - see what you are missing. Peace & Love. :) |
| Brian Fennessy | Oct 29 2012, 2:33pm | Fair play to tim and shane for being up front and honest enough to join the discussion. There are probably a handful of people causing problems on the mountains and we shouldnt tar all enduro/motocross riders with the same brush. I would say both sides have a point. However when i was a young fella people spent alot of time giving out about skateboarders out on the streets eventually councils got together cut out redtape and insurance issues and built skate parks which have been extremely successful. Also coilite created tracks for mountain bikers to help solve the problems that they sometimes created in wooded areas where people walked maybe its about time the motocross organisations sat down and had meetings with other groups to try and resolve the problem. Theres never a problem only a solution. |
| Kevin O'Riordan | Oct 29 2012, 3:16pm | It's been difficult enough getting Coillte to engage with pedal cyclists. The official trails are only lip service, most biking is still done on clandestine trails and relations are fairly strained at the moment to my understanding. I wouldn't hold my breath for a policy towards motorbikes. Maybe you can find a friendly farmer who's willing to lease you some land. I've heard rumours that one of the mountain bike clubs is engaging with a Wicklow farmer to build mountain bike trails on private land at the moment. |
| cormac o ceallaigh | Oct 29 2012, 7:57pm | Yes a very interesting and relevant debate, albeit an old thread that has been re-awaken. I have had a few unpleasant experience with motor biker aka qasi hell's angles as far as i am concerned. I remember years ago at one race that took in lug there was quads at the top. I have no major issue with mountain bikers are they are silent when compared to the poision roar and rev of motor bikes. Motor bikes! - i was running in Kirikee near by where i live a few years ago , and no not motor bikes but car ripping through the forest , some race on the fire roads, the noise spoiled what is otherwise a beautiful tranquil part of wicklow . I think part of the problem maybe over who is in charge , there are so many parties who appear to be responsible for some parts of wicklow, you have coillte, the national parks , wicklow county council, all with different views on what is/not acceptable. Whatever about motor bikes, one thing which i strongly object to and which is slightly away form the topic is putting caps on runners on the hills, " erosion" is the great argument. The tracks and trails are there to be used, it is entering a dangerous realm if this line is pursued any further , we need to say STOP NOW! most runners are not driving tractors or half tracks up the mountains, we will have to start wearing our slippers next? when i used to hill walk alot 10-15 yrs ago, you'd be doing well to bump into someone out walking. The outdoors is the new pepsi cola, it needs to be encouraged and promoted -not restricted with penal restrictions, what next, only a set number of walking clubs per month in certain parts of wicklow? limited to x amount of people,...and by the way they need to wear foam sole boots! I did some treking in Nepal years ago, there is a holy mountain there called ' fish tail' .. its out of bounds no one is allow on it or near it....will this be next, the moutains dictating to us? the vast majority of walkers and hill runners are responsible people who are passionate about the out doors , lets not make things complicated. |
| pat barry | Oct 29 2012, 8:49pm | As I do not live in Ireland, very infrequently I get up Galteemore for a run and a couple of times I have seen quad bikes in the col between the two Galtees. It is unbelievable that it can be legal that they are up there tearing up such a fragile area. We runners and walkers do enough damage up there but a single bike..... |
| Brendan Lawlor | Oct 30 2012, 7:41am | Good off topic rant there Cormac! Not that I necessarily agree with you mind! |
| Philip Brennan | Oct 31 2012, 5:26pm | Am just picking up the recent comments on this thread. What I would say to Shane and his fellow scramblers is that it is now illegal to use a motorised vehicle in most upland areas and Coillte forests, if you do so you are breaking the law - as no doubt the Gardai told you - and if you continue to do so you will be prosecuted. We visit the hills & forests to get away from this sort of activity - almost no-one wants to listen to motorbikes tearing along forest trails & destroying the upland environment. For any visitor to the mountains of Ireland the evidence is there, quad damage on Lug, permanent scars all around Kellys Lough & environs, savage erosion in the Blackstairs & Galtee mountains - all done in the name of this so called sport. The Dublin Mountains Partnership has engaged with motorcross groups with a view to sourcing a facility for scramblers, it will no doubt take some time to achieve but in the mean time the message is clear - if you take your motorbike up into the hills & forests you are acting illegally & will be prosecuted, in the UK more repressive laws were brought in which involved crushing of repeat offender's bikes, lets hope we don't have to resort to this extreme to reinfoce the message "no quads or scramblers on the hills & forests of Ireland". |
| Alan Ayling | Nov 2 2012, 11:46pm | OK, to answer Moira's original question about seeing "scramblers or quads endangering someone", the answer will have to be "Absolutely not". While this is understandably an emotive issue, I have not had any actual problems with "motorised vehicle" users at all. Sure there is noise, but if I want genuine peace and quiet I will find it, even if I have to go beyond the limits of 3Rock to do so. The only real issue I have with these machines is the damage they do to the land, obviously they churn everything up much more than walkers, or runners, or deer, or even horses or the dreaded mountain bikers, of which I am most definitely one. So from where I'm at, the motorbikes and quads don't belong on sensitive upland areas that are prone to erosion, but frankly if they want to ride in forests that are going to be torn to bits by 20 ton machinery anyway, I say let them. Such a landscape is false in the first place and is doomed to be raped by bigger, badder machines, so it's fair game. Most of the lads on motorbikes are well up for keeping a low profile and staying off busy walking trails and mtb trails that someone has put a lot of work into, so let them at it. And while Coillte have to follow the ABC code (Always Be Covered) and expressly prohibit such "dangers", well, their contemptible byelaws prohibit swimming, mtbing, music, in fact just about anything that might constitute enjoyment, it's a wonder they haven't banned trekking poles and Vibram soles and red socks... These things are ultimately driven by a disgusting legal system where any would-be "victim" can sue a landowner and be successful because the judge takes the side of the poor victim who didn't look where he was going... or worse still it's far easier to cough up the readies and settle out of court for a five figure sum to make the whole thing go away. Common sense doesn't come into it. Trying to ban motorised sport altogether isn't going to work. It'll just go underground. Trying to corral it it to one designated spot somewhere isn't going to work either. Imagine if we, the hillrunners, were told we have one or two designated mountains where we could run and that's it - what would happen? We'd run wherever the hell we wanted, albeit in an unauthorised and uncontrolled way, but such is human nature. What's needed is a sensible, grown-up solution that works for everyone. Sadly, this is Ireland and we're not very good at such things, when a blanket ban is such an easy "solution". |
| Paul Joyce | Nov 3 2012, 8:46am | This is definitely an emotive issue for many in IMRA, almost akin to asking for directions to the nearest pub on an AA forum. Like most others here, I've no real desire to hear the buzzing of quads or scramblers when I'm trying to get away from it all in the mountains. However, Shane B is looking for practical alternatives to bandit scrambling, and should be commended for coming here to ask that. (The alternative is a free-for-all attitude to current laws, which will lead to more damage on unsuitable mountains for bikes/quads). Down here in South Wicklow, Leinster 4x4 lease some sections of forestry from Coillte, and drive their off-road routes every weekend. They cut new routes and paths with their heavy vehicles, routes which IMRA have then gladly used as part of Annagh Hill race. When they are on the mountains, they put warning signs on the trail entrances. I've always found them very polite and accommodating with respect to sharing the hills- perhaps Shane you could contact them and find out what their model is? |
| Brendan Lawlor | Nov 3 2012, 9:29am | Some mutual respect and a bit of 'live and let live' would serve us far better that the absolutist 'ban them all' attitude some people are advocating. While personally I'm no great fan of motor bike noise whenever I encounter it (which is rare enough) I do think this activity (no more than our own) should be accommodated in some way which respects other off road users. The annual Scarr race which many people like very much is only possible because of the kindness of a regular motorbike enthusiast facilitating access and parking.He could just as easily take the 'ban them all' view of us hillrunners. A 'zero tolerance' approach on this might end up biting us in the backside |
| Diarmuid O'Colmain | Nov 4 2012, 12:48pm | Have to say I agree with the last few posts advocating tolerance and openness. I'm in the mountains quite a lot and have only very rarely met anyone on a motorbike. In fact the only specific instances I can remember were a couple of occasions in Carrick mountain when I had a brief chat with people who were loading up their bikes after a session on the hill. And they were very polite, normal human beings who enjoyed their sport. And again to answer Moire's question, I have personally never seen a motor bike or quad acting in a way that was dangerous or threatening. When it comes to damage being caused; clearly there are a couple of areas that are damaged by quads and motorbikes (more the former than the latter I would think); there are also areas that are really mangled by horses, including a couple of tracks in Carrick that can become virtually unusable at times. There is a kind of hierarchy of offence/complaint - walkers complain about the irresponsibility of runners; runners complain about mtbers (unless they are mtbers themselves); all of the above complain about motorbikes, and everyone complains about Coillte, both for tearing up the forest and for building sustainable tracks. And I have heard or read anecdotes about members from all categories of users who have behaved in an insulting and offensive manner towards other users. So let's find an inclusive way of resolving the problems; rather than a way that excludes other users. As for breaking the law; anyone who cycles on a track that is not a designated mtb track (which means very very few tracks) is breaching at least some kind of bylaw or directive at the forest entrance and we all know what proportion of mtbers that includes! |
| Holier Than Thou | Nov 4 2012, 10:24pm | Loaded question A loaded question is a question which contains a controversial or unjustified assumption (e.g., a presumption of guilt).[1] Aside from being a logical fallacy, such questions may be used as a rhetorical tool: the question attempts to limit direct replies to be those that serve the questioner's agenda.[2] The traditional example is the question "Have you stopped beating your wife?" Whether the respondent answers yes or no, he will admit to having a wife, and having beaten her at some time in the past. Thus, these facts are presupposed by the question |
| Eddie Niland | Nov 6 2012, 8:56pm | I have met 4x4's in the Ballyhoura's a few times (Running & MTB'ing) and have had no problems at all with them. Quite the opposite, ive gotten a coffee and use of a compressor given to me just when needed! Ive met Moto Bikers in S. Dublin/Wicklow and had no problems either, we were both "trespassing" at the time. I have been out walking (sad I know) with a group who met a quad. They took it upon themselves to give out to the driver only to find out that he was the landowner. Not all Quads in the hills are illegal. Ive been out running in Wicklow and been given out to by Walkers (& MTBer's) for not being properly equipped to be up in the mountains. Ive been out on the hills on my bike and given out by runners and walkers for causing damage (we dont- damage done by MTB is equal to walkers) Ive been given out to while Orienteering by walkers (Hmm pattern building here...). I suppose my point is that every group on the hills think that they know best - the other group should be banned to protect their activity. Banning people from the hills/forests is not going to work. There are plenty of space for us all, lots of crappy Coillte Forests which are ecological wastelands already. - Set up Trail maintenance volunteer groups to build specific trails to their own needs, not some H&S version. I'd prefer to ride a trail made by a committed volunteer over H&S Lite version any day, usually do. - Designate spots and let us all get on doing what we want to do. - Properly built trails will also be more sustainable and add to the so called Tourism product. Everyone is a winner in the end. Other option is to ban everyone from the hills and leave it to the real wildlife. All this tread is missing is Colm H. Hope he has the history of IHRA/IMRA with him....ah the 80's when it was simpler! |
| jordan cotter | Apr 20 2013, 11:54am | I ride motocross ? People think we save for weeks for these bikes just to go up and intentionally annoy hill walkers and others who occupy these hills ? No, not at all. We buy these machines because we are passionate about them and their capabilities. Maybe for a hill walker their idea of getting away is walking in peace and quiet. For us our way of relieving a weeks stress ( because we also have jobs, family, college and school and we do get stressed because we are also human, in case you forgot that ) is going on a nice drive up through a forest and releasing our stress in a very different way that is predominantly only understood by motocross riders themselves. I know I don't really have alot to say here but u will say this; if you are passionate about a sport, buy the required equipment and have fun, if that sport becomes threatened, liked a cornered animal it will retaliate. Last thing, I found tgos page while searching for somewhere me and my mates could ride without hassle. I am intrigued that I found so many people against us because when I wave at a walker they wave back with a smile. We are not little terrorists who destroy things so please refrain from proceeding with that opinion/ assumption. Thanks |
| jay hanks | Sep 15 2013, 12:29am | The hollier than thou attitude from walkers is very tiring....... go take a long walk off a short pier!! |
| Conor Murphy | Sep 16 2013, 10:33am | I think Jay's contribution thought provoking and hopefully it will foster a new era of mutual respect and understanding. Rarely see quads or scramblers here in Kerry. Banned off some routes, like through the National Park. Usually when I see them out here it's the fellows heading off up to farms or lands they own, maybe with friends to have a bit of a laugh while working, and in fairness while I might wince at the site of the trails they carve on the other hand its their land and I'm not some eco warrior. |
| conor ??? | Oct 9 2014, 8:00pm | I know this was a long time ago now but what is the outcome has the been any legal motorcycle trails made and if so where? |
