Wicklow Way Path Widening
| Author | Date | Message |
|---|---|---|
| John Murphy | Feb 22 2012, 3:20pm | I ran the section of the Wicklow Way from Fairy Castle to the the Pine Forest Road at the weekend and was agast at the scale of the new path from the Tibradden turn off to the road. It cuts through the hill side like a great big scar and the vegetation on either side has been hacked away for several metres on either side. I have no doubt that the persons responsible (presumably Mountain Meitheal) are well intentioned but the scale of the works is excessive. I know this part was badly rutted due to heavy rains but it used to be a nice section of path down through the trees to the road. A large number of these old trees have also been hacked down in the name of progress. Those who know the are will be aware that the section to Tibradden has not recovered over 3 years later. With the path widening it brings other issues, mountain bikers now frequent the trail, weaving their way around runners and walkers to the top of Fairy Castle. There are also a number of scrambler tracks, another very unwelcome side effect. As a result the path from the WW trail to Fairy Castle is now really cut up due to Bikes and Scramblers. Actions have consequences, something people in this country fail to consider ! Will the next step be a great big fire road over the mountain ? |
| Zoran Skrba | Feb 27 2012, 8:51am | Was lovely to run down the new path :), fast! But they should have made it flatter for the way back ;)... |
| John Murphy | Feb 27 2012, 10:44pm | None of it will matter when the government sell off Coilte and we have no access to some of these mountains. |
| Paul Cullen | Feb 28 2012, 10:23am | Interesting comment but why not check with Mountain Meitheal before throwing out accusations. Too much of this stuff on the internet. |
| Stuart Scott | Feb 28 2012, 10:35am | Could it also be the DMP? It's back to the age-old debate. I think trails are essential in high-use areas to prevent erosion, and they're great for encouraging more people to get out into the mountains. At the same time, the best thing about the mountains is the sense of remoteness. Suppose it's like comparing the Wed night races with the Championship runs...both have their good points but there's no comparison! |
| Kevin O'Riordan | Feb 28 2012, 10:46am | Zoran, that's an awful track fairy sentiment! :) I can see the reasoning behind trail work in some areas where there's heavy erosion, but it's a shame what they did to this section imo. Walkers were already prevented from spreading out by the trees either side of the path, now the trees are gone and the scar that's left on the mountain from the path work is worse than anything the previously existing erosion could have done. Not to mention the loss of enjoyment of one of the last "natural" bits of the Wicklow Way. |
| Justin Rea | Feb 28 2012, 12:53pm | Yes. <a href="http://www.dublinmountains.ie/news/latest_news/read_article/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=194&tx_ttnews[backPid]=45&cHash=9f9b56d9d2cd0edeecf16c433b4274c2"> This work</a> was done by the DMP in partnership with Coillte and WW Partnersip. This is an example of a trail that follows the fall line of the hill (directly down), which never works due to eventual water erosion. An alternative approach to remedial work was completed on the Knockree section of WW just above the Youth hostel. The section down off Maulin to the bridge over the Dargle is another that was suffering from significant erosion before Mountain Meitheal worked on it. Personally, I prefer the Mountain Meitheal approach with hard labour, shovels and pick axes. The DMP have used Coillte road builders and JCBs to do the jobs on Ticknock and the difference shows. Running tracked vehicles over the bog and heather has severely damaged the surrounding terrain and made the trail less interesting. This was also how the Ticknock mountain bike trails were built and the damage will be with us for a while. It is all down to money and getting kms of trail for minimal spend. |
| Alan Ayling | Feb 28 2012, 3:31pm | It's a bit like the cycle lanes that have proliferated in Dublin City over the last 10 or 12 years. Emphasis on quantity, not quality. Maximium amount of kilometers per €. And in many cases, poorly or lazily thought out. Surely the section of Dublin Mountains Way over the top of Two Rock - a pleasant trail until a couple of years ago, now a boggy, cut-up disaster - warranted attention before the travesty John Murphy described above? RIP the Wocka Wockas. |
| moira creedon | Feb 29 2012, 6:56pm | Having done a small amount of (hard) work with Mountain Meitheal there is big distinction between their approach and this type of work on the DMP path junction which I saw on Saturday. This is not the sort of project Meitheal do at all - there is no erosion pre-emption benefit, and the Meitheal hand built back breaking approach produces a completely different outcome. Not sure if this piece is reversable but definitely worth raising with the usual lobby groups - (Mountaineering Ireland environmental officer for example )etc. to minimise wider implementation of this approach. |
| Kevin O'Riordan | Mar 1 2012, 3:26pm | I sent DMP an e-mail. It's probably worth others doing the same. Otherwise, the only feedback they will have to base decisions on is "More trails, great". |
| John Murphy | Mar 3 2012, 7:46pm | Fair enough...should not have apportioned any responsibility to MM, the Mountain Meitheal sections up to tibradden and from the masts at 3 rock are far superior. |
| Dermot Murphy | Mar 5 2012, 3:17pm | To find out more about Mountain Meitheal, the work they do on the paths and how you can help, please refer to their website: http://www.pathsavers.org/ |
| Bill Murphy | Mar 5 2012, 4:07pm | In a very interesting paper entitled "Less Is More – The Aesthetics Of Trail Maintenance", (Appalachia, Summer /Fall 2005), the author, an experienced trail manager points out that “Trail maintenance involves a central contradiction: in trying to preserve the land we change it. The best trail work stops erosion while blending smoothly with the surrounding environment. The challenge – and the art – of trail work is to install work that solves erosion problems without marring the integrity of the wildernessâ€. Of course he was talking about wilder landscapes however this dilemma is faced by all responsible trail managers. How to protect the environment from the impacts of recreation without destroying the very essence of what we want people to enjoy. Trails allow us to limit the impact of feet and bike tyres to the treadway and if trail managers harden the treadway then they can provide a durable long term sustainable solution. The “trail†on the south-western side of Fairy Castle is a classic example where recreation usage is not contained to a durable and defined trail. The recently completed section of the Wicklow Way in the Dublin Mountains was very badly rutted – in fact it had developed into a gully almost 600mm in places. How do we stop erosion? The time for pre-emptive actions had long passed, what this trail required was a total rebuild to make it sustainable. Our trail managers examined several possibilities the first option was rock work. To this end the trail was visited by Mountain Meitheal and our trail managers but it was felt that this was not a workable solution given the large volumes of rock that would have to be brought in, which in itself would have caused serious off-trail damage. A second option was a bog bridge (timber solution) however this was felt would be too intrusive and man-made and also with the depth of the gully erosion would continue to be an issue. The golden rule of trail building is to keep water off the trail. This is particularly true in Ireland. Given the severe rutting and erosion already on the trail we could only achieve this result by raising the treadway above the surrounding ground level, constructing a cambered treadway and installing waterbars at intervals. Therefore the third option was to use a reversal trail method of construction (see pages 38-40 of the Mountain Meitheal Handbook of Trail Design and Construction). This method uses borrow pits along the trail to source suitable material for trail building – inorganic subsoil and rock. Once the material is extracted the organic layer (which has low carrying capacity) is deposited in the pit and the ground levelled off. This is the reason we have disturbed the area adjacent to the trail. The trail has just been completed and it does look raw. However an examination of the Tibradden Mountain trail just at the junction will show that there is a considerable amount of re-vegetation and regeneration of trees occurring along this section of trail. We are confident that the area off-trail will re-vegetate quickly and within a year to 18 months will soften and blend with the surrounding environment. This has been our experience elsewhere. This year the total spend on recreation in the Dublin Mountains will be in the order of €280,000. This is a significant expenditure given the current state of the public purse. With trail construction costs running from €30/m to over €100/m (for stone work) we must prioritise carefully what work needs to be undertaken to promote access while protecting the environment. The DMP does not believe in building trails for trails sake but in prioritising black spots. We make no apologies for trying to get the maximum value from our spend. We have been lucky over the last few years to have had the support of Mountain Meitheal in managing some of our trails. The trails they undertook required different solutions and were selected as projects that best suited Mountain Meitheal’s skills and the resources they could bring to the projects. However contrary to the view expressed here we gave serious consideration to the possible solutions. We carried out an environmental impact report and put in place mitigating actions. The trails we have constructed elsewhere in the Dublin Mountains have been very effective in limiting trail spread and erosion and have provided a valuable infrastructure for many thousands of users. They have stood the test of several periods of heavy snow and severe rainfall and the adjacent lands, while initially disturbed, are showing strong regeneration because impact is limited to the trail treadway. We believe that they meet the requirements of limiting erosion while blending (after a year or two) into the environment. The type of trails appropriate in the Dublin Mountains under the national trail standards (available on the National Trail Office website) range from Classes I to III . This trail would comply with a classes II/III. We strive to make them as rugged and challenging and to use as much natural materials as possible. Using natural rock as steps and waterbars adds to the rustic feel of the trail. This section of the Wicklow Way has a limited corridor with the forest on one side and private land on the other. We did not have the luxury of being able to start with a blank sheet in laying out our trail, if we had we would probably not have chosen a fall line trail. Trail and land management is about making decisions and compromises which sometimes may not be universally welcomed. The staff of the Dublin Mountains Partnership and of the Coillte Recreation Team work closely with Mountain Meitheal and use their handbook as the standard reference text for trail work. Our trail managers have attended trail courses run by Mountain Meitheal and I myself have been a volunteer with Mountain Meitheal since its foundation. Whether Mountain Meitheal or contractors or trail planners the challenge for all trail builders is to provide sustainable and challenging outdoor recreation experiences on trails that control erosion and blend with the landscape. I can assure you that the staff of the DMP and Coillte trail managers give this as much consideration as do volunteers. Bill Murphy Chairman DMP |
| Robert Grandon | Mar 6 2012, 7:54pm | The work at Tribadden on the Wicklow Way Section was completed by the Dublin Mountains Partnership on behalf of the Wicklow Way Partnership. The Wicklow Way Partnership was formed last Autumn to manage and coordinate the upkeep of the Wicklow Way. Mountain Meitheal is a member of the Wicklow Way Partnership. The path repair at Tribadden was a priority project due to the advanced state of erosion that the path had suffered. The use of machinery is not new when it comes to mountain path repair. Examples of machines being used are at Glensoulan using the trail reversal technique which rescued a very a very eroded path which had become unsustainably wide and returned it to a more sustainable, durable state in 2005. This method was recently repeated on a section of the Wicklow Way leading to the stone wall before you drop down to the bridge over the Dargle at Glensoulan from the Northern direction. It was Mountain Meitheal Volunteers who responded to the call torestore that same bridge which was very badly damaged late in 2011. Supported by the Wicklow Way Partership Meitheal Volunteers gave up important time of theirs before Christmas 2011 to restore this very important crossing on the Way. Comment may be free and facts sacred. Unfortunately this has not always been evident in some posts to the Forum. Mountain Meitheal,s standards are of the highest nationally and internationally.As recognition of this,last year we were presented with an Eco Award Prize from the European Ramblers Assoc.This was in recognition for our project work in the Dublin Mountains under the Dublin Mountains Partnership auspices. As part of our commitment to best practice we have published "The Mountain Meitheal Handbook of Trail Design and Construction".(2nd Edition). Details to obtain this very comprehensive guide to trail conservation can be found on our website www.pathsavers.org . It is our philosophy to welcome all users of the uplands to join us on our project days to learn more about our work.Details on the above website. As a group we are dependant on the support and goodwill of groups and individuals who all enjoy the great benefit of their use of the uplands to sustain us in continuing our work. We are very grateful for the support and friendship from hillwalking groups and others over the last 10 years. Our Volunteers are a diverse group with an unselfish commitment to the wellbeing of the upland environment. I would ask you all to take time to reflect on the great benefits you receive from the mountain environment and maybe join with us in Mountain Meitheal to give something back to this very resource. As our motto goes. "Get Out" "Get Dirty" "Give Back" Best Wishes to All Robert Grandon (Chair Mountain Meitheal) |
| Justin Rea | Mar 7 2012, 9:28am | I would propose Mountain Meitheal trail repair events be placed on our calender and be counted as volunteer duty towards end of league prizes. The work they do makes our trails safer for traversing at speed! |
| Colm Hil | Mar 7 2012, 2:21pm | "I would propose Mountain Meitheal trail repair events be placed on our calender and be counted as volunteer duty towards end of league prizes." I completely agree "The work they do makes our trails safer for traversing at speed!" I completely disagree. Whatever way the mountain is, that's the way it should be raced on. |
| Stephen Buckley | Mar 7 2012, 5:23pm | What Colm said. If we wanted safe, we'd be racing down the tarmac road from 3-rock! The fun is in the uneven terrain. |
| Robert Grandon | Mar 7 2012, 6:37pm | Sorry to return to the Forum posts at this stage. Just to clarify that it is not Mountain Meitheal,s philosophy or goal to make the mountain environment less challenging and to iron out the difficulties involved in mountain recreation activity. This philosophy is posted on our literature and website. I mention this in reply to the most recent posts. However to ignore the erosion impact of users of the mountains would be unacceptable and interventions of high standards are appropiate when this occurs. To ignore any adverse impact be it human or weather sourced on a very fragile environment would be unacceptable. Again I would encourage anyone who would wish to gain more knowledge of path repair and mountain environment conservation done to the highest standard to come out on one of our days and see our work at first hand. Robert Grandon ( Chair Mountain Meitheal) |
| Diarmuid O'Colmain | Mar 11 2012, 10:21pm | Great idea to put the Mountain Meitheal on our calendar with volunteering points to be earned. Towards the end of the year we tend to get too many people volunteering for races; supporting MM would be win-win. But hopefully, if we could get the ethos of contributing to MM established in IMRA, we could be making a small contribution throughout the year also. I suspect this idea will take a little while to take hold but perhaps early volunteers would initiate forum comments to share the information about what they have done, and hopefully that will encourage more to contribute. |
| Mark d'Alton | Mar 11 2012, 10:43pm | I'm aware that my reply is somewhat late in the day - apologies but I have been away until recently. Firstly I would like to give my backing in general to Bill and Robert's comments - much thought is put into what is best in terms of trail development and the following have to be recognised :- - The Dublin Mountains is an area of very high usage - the selected solutions have to reflect that. That being so, they may not always be as aesthetic as one might wish. - Current budgetary constraints greatly constrain design and construction - essentially the DMP is doing the best it can under difficult circumstances. As someone who sits on the DMP board, representing the recreational community, I can assure you all that there is absolutely no ethos of 'let's put in more km of trails for the optics' as one or two contributors have suggested. - MM do terrific work - however it has to be borne in mind that that work can be very labour intensive. I worked a couple of weekends on the MM trail up to Fairy Castle and the pace of work was necessarily slow - from memory I calculated it as being 2 metres per person per working day (that's two paces!). Sometimes the use of machinery is simply unavoidable. - A somewhat longer term view should be taken that that shown by some contributors - revegitation of disturbed areas may take a few years but will happen in time. - We had record rains last winter with inevitable trail erosion. These are essentially my personal opinions. As one of the DMI representatives on the DMP Board my role is to take forward the opinions of the constituent organisations - we have a DMI meeting tomorrow evening and I have asked the IMRA representatives to bring the opinions of the IMRA community to that meeting for discussion. Mark d'Alton (Chair, Dublin Mountains Initiative) |
| Gavan Doherty | Mar 11 2012, 11:22pm | hi all, was up there earlier and took a look at this path thing. there's plenty of short-term damage done on either side (particularly on the steeper parts to dig larger water run-off drains), but that'll grow over with a bit of time. can't see too many trees cut down. the new path remake is similar to the path off tibradden (heading towards fairy castle). like colm, i personally prefer rougher trails, but all the trails around that area are too popular now and it's not sustainable to leave them get wider and wider with increased foot/tyrefall. also agree with justin - the Mountain Meitheal & Dublin Mountains Partnership do great work and IMRA is one of the beneficiaries of that. so we should do whatever we can to support that work. cheers, |
| Alan Ayling | Mar 12 2012, 12:19am | Bill - thanks for your detailed reply. It is good to hear from yourself and Mark the level of thought that has actually gone into these projects. I would stress - purely as a trail user - that the sheer straight line aspect of these trails makes them inherently unattractive to walk or run on. It seems somehow quite false - like a motorway or something. Designed more for convenience of the machines and keeping cost down than any real aesthetics of the finished product. Would some more frequent changes of direction and surface be possible in future projects, to give the trail a more varied and interesting aspect? For example, the trail through the top section of what was Curtlestown Wood, from the top open mountain between Prince William's Seat and Raven's Rock down as far as the fenced off reservoir, is a mixture of trail types - a paved/pitched rock section, then below that a raised/cambered trail which winds its way gently down to its destination, using subtle water bars along the way. Not the most natural thing in the world, but still pleasant to be on. By contrast the one being debated above has all the interest and variety of the drive to Belfast. Furthermore - and this may be a very naive question - but was all of it necessary? Clearly, the section of new WW trail below the branch off to Tibradden was badly rutted and needed something doing to it. But was there really anything wrong with the first (top) 300 metres? Couldn't this have been left as was? Same goes for the trail over Tibradden itself - the section from the WW to Tibradden Mountain was in an awful state and has been greatly improved by the works, but the rocky trail from the top of Tibradden down to the fire road in Pine Forest - that was kinda cool. A bit rough, but wasn't channelling water down a fall line or anything if I recall. Would it have represented a useful cost saving to leave well enough alone in these cases and spend the money on a more satisfactory solution to the bits that actually needed doing? I don't want to undermine the valuable works of Mountain Meitheal and DMP here, but maybe sometimes criticism is good in helping direct future work in a positive way. You will never please all the people all of the time anyway. |
| Mark d'Alton | Mar 12 2012, 9:48am | Hi Alan, I appreciate your points - and the constructive intent. I'd agree; we won't always get everything right (or please everyone all the time!) so constructive criticism like this can only be helpful. Bill would be better qualified to deal with the detail of your post so I'll leave that to him. Mark |
| Aoife Joyce | Mar 16 2012, 8:25am | I joined the Mountain Meitheal team for a day lately and I could not recommend it highly enough. The group were extremely welcoming, encouraging and friendly. A great day of cross training. |
