New Jacket Rule
| Author | Date | Message |
|---|---|---|
| Gareth Little | Jan 12 2015, 10:54pm | Hi all, As of 2015, all runners must carry at all times during each race (with the exception of Killiney Hill), a minimum of a shower and windproof jacket. The jackets given out in recent Leinster Leagues will suffice as a minimum standard. Ponchos, black bags, etc are not acceptable. Please refer to last years post on this topic for further detail: https://www.imra.ie/forum/topic/id/3867 Additional kit may be required for some of the longer races. The race directors for these races will let you know closer to the event. This rule will be reviewed as the season progresses. Any questions, please reply below or mail committee@imra.ie Thanks, Gareth Little – IMRA safety officer gareth.little@imra.ie |
| Jim Fitzharris | Jan 16 2015, 9:29am | Hi Paul, I am using this thread to reply to your posting as I think it is the most appropriate one. Richard can reply in his own right but I can see two reasons why accepting a hooded jacket in lieu of a jacket plus hat might cause problems:- 1. It is easy for a race volunteer that is under pressure to check jacket + hat – simple: two items. If they have to look to see whether there is a hood on a jacket, runners may have to extract jackets from stuff sacs or some other recess! Some hoods are in pockets at the collar, etc. thus causing extra hassle. 2. I sometimes use a light hat/beanie when running in cold weather. I would never use a hood: it is often more isolating than insulating, plus it is hard to keep it up in windy conditions, etc. I will open a separate thread on the Constitution question. Cheers, Jim. |
| Richard Nunan | Jan 16 2015, 9:46am | An interesting article for people to read in terms of Mandatory Gear.. https://lakeland100.wordpress.com/2014/06/26/kit-check-and-carrying-emergency-provisions/ |
| Richard Nunan | Jan 16 2015, 9:50am | Jim, A small point to add -the idea of the hat is to give great flexibility for people who have a Jacket. They can have a Jacket with or without a hood. |
| Jim Fitzharris | Jan 16 2015, 10:22am | Richard, That link to the Lakeland event is brilliant! Bugger diplomacy! Cheers, Jim. |
| Paul O'Grady | Jan 16 2015, 10:33am | An interesting article - but I fail to grasp the relevance of an article written for the Lakeland 50 mile and Lakeland 100 mile event when discussing a 5K race at 12Noon in suburban Howth!! |
| Jeff Fitzsimons | Jan 16 2015, 12:13pm | I think the relevance of that article is that one of it's key messsages is you're being asked to carry kit not based on the likelihood of something going wrong during the event, but in case something does go wrong. The location of the mishap is pretty irrelevant to be honest. The link below relates to a sad case in December when a man died at Ticknock, which could well be considered suburban. I was there on the day as it happened and the helicopter which may have got aid to him more quickly and saved his life could not get to him due to cloud cover at Fairy Castle. Just maybe 100m lower at the car park there was no such cloud cover. So this suburban setting proved sadly to be no safer than the summit of Lug for this poor unfortunate casualty. A jacket wouldn't have saved him either. But some people need to be saved from themselves. Hence the need for some mandatory kit. http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/man-dies-after-collapsed-climbing-4725243 |
| Mick O'Neill | Jan 16 2015, 12:32pm | For some of the summer league routes for example Seefingan which normally takes in mid summer, the argument could be made that head torch and whistle would as appropriate to carry as a jacket and hat and if you get injured darkness could set in before yo get down the mountain, any you could easily get lost up there! |
| Gareth Little | Jan 16 2015, 2:09pm | Hi Paul, regardless of the race, the point we are trying to get across is runner safety. Mandatory kit has been brought up three years running at the AGM so the committee this year has acted accordingly on member concerns. For this race, all we are asking is for runners to bring a jacket and a hat. Both are light weight items and will create little inconvenience for the competitors. And forgive me if I have misread the tone of your “5K race at 12Noon in suburban Howth!!†comment but I get the impression that you see this as a race where safety should be of little concern due to the area and distance of the event? As Jim mentioned, if you have a serious injury and a helicopter cannot get to you, your closet help is up to 45 minutes away. The weather for Sunday is close to freezing which will make ‘suburban Howth’ not a very pleasant place to be if you are sitting in the mud waiting for help. Gareth |
| Jim Fitzharris | Jan 16 2015, 2:48pm | I also inferred from the link to the Lakeland events that they stipulated a mandatory kit list and brooked absolutely no dissent or bulls#*t! Gareth, it was Jeff who alluded to the unfortunate incident in Ticknock but thanks anyway! Short story to reinforce IMRA’s position. I was a volunteer at the IMRA event in Howth last year. I helped to mark the course (getting nice and warm in the process) and then stationed myself at the exit from the Deer Park at the base of the famous steep hill. This is a sheltered (one could almost say cosy) spot on the route. I have re-checked the weather for the date in question - 19 Jan 2014. It was dry, cold and virtually windless. Anyone on the day would have said it was lovely weather for January. When I was in position as a marshal, the temperature was around 6 degrees Celsius. I was well geared up (dressed as walker not a runner) with proper jacket, leggings, gloves, hat, walking boots, etc. and I distinctly recall getting quite cold standing there and being very glad to be able to move on after the last runner went through. I was there for only 30-40 minutes or so and could move around a little, stamp my feet, etc. What would it be like to be dressed more lightly as a runner in a more exposed spot and not be able to move while awaiting help? Sorry to labour the point but do people realise just how cold you can get while immobile outside in winter or if the weather gets nasty? I have other personal tales of salutary experiences in the mountains both as a volunteer and a runner (marshal at the summit of Djouce – try it sometime in November!; getting lost and nearly hypothermic in wind and rain in the Glacier Lakes Relay with a jacket, hat & gloves!) which reminded me of just how unkind the elements can be if you are stationary or the weather really turns against you. |
| John B Riordan | Jan 16 2015, 3:19pm | Oh but for the wisdom of Solomon! Let’s give everyone the benefit of the doubt that the foregoing was constructively intended to test the boundaries of the definition, perhaps even value, of prudence / safety (which in my book “hath no priceâ€). Whether it be 5km or 50km, at mean sea level or at altitude, the objective is to provide for the hopefully no more than occasional wobble that besets us all at the most random of moments, no matter how fit or tough we (think we) are. The jacket and hat (separate items) seems pragmatic to protect against the remarkably sudden onslaught of heat loss where a marked change of pace due injury, spatial disorientation, fatigue or a combination thereof arises. We live on a latitude where weather and/or daylight can change very quickly. Having run (more recently hobbled) around Irish Mountains for over 35 years (and only since last Summer under the excellent IMRA races with my kids) I have been fortunate never to have had a serious injury but equally have never had to claim on car insurance! 20/20 hindsight can be a dangerous thing. I just would not be prepared to bet on “event risk†for the sake of the minor inconvenience of being prepared. As we say in the flying game “safety is no accident†and much accident prevention is a function of “human factorsâ€, “human limitations†and “situational awarenessâ€. If one of my pilot students presented unprepared, they are sent home. No discussion. We do not negotiate on Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs) because they keep us alive. And yes, they are periodically reviewed - thanks to that all important thing that is in no textbook, namely experience. What is proposed here is not unduly onerous and certainly not intended to be an imposition. It might be deemed “wrong†from time to time, even by me as I arrive with jacket and hat at the bottom of the descent, hopefully uninjured and possibly prone to overheating! Give me that any day over the alternative. This is about being “less wrong†or being “consistently wrong†and applying rationally thought-out procedures, uniformly. It also gives our Race Directors and their teams (along with other key stakeholders such as Mountain Rescue who so selflessly give of their time) a bit of capacity / time to manage things when they don’t always go to plan. In the best interest of all. I have learnt a lot from what I have read in the various postings here and learn every time I go out in the elements. Usually about how little I know. Let’s be careful out there, learn from each other and enjoy the privilege of being able to do what we do. Safely. |
| Ian Conroy | Jan 16 2015, 5:03pm | This (abbreviated) article from WMRA website shows how anything can happen in the hills/mountains, even if you're used to the area and are a champion runner. Jon Tvedt, Norwegian mountain runner died on January 11th 2009 during a training run. The run went up to a mountain called Gullfjellet, just outside Bergen, together with his brother Øyvind and his training partner Jan Fjærestad. It is normally a three hour run and one Jon did most Sundays. It was extremely bad weather with lot of wind and a mixture of rain and snow. After passing the top at about 1000 m, on the way down again, Jon got very tired and started to totter. Both his brother and Jan had to support him, but this slowed them up considerably and Jon got extremely cold and wet (the wind made it feel like minus 6 C). This temperature made it dangerous and it started to get dark. His brother Øyvind therefore ran to try to find a mobile connection and get help, while Jan stayed with Jon and tried to keep him warm. After a while Jon passed away, and Jan tried hard for about 30 - 45 minutes to bring him back to life with heart compression, unfortunately with bad result. There and then Jon lost his life about 500 m above his hometown Bergen. Extremely sad..... Jon Tvedt leaves two daughters and one multihandicapped son after him (his wife and their mother died for about ten years ago). Jon won the Norwegian mountain running championship on four occasions 2005-2008 and was also the Norwegian orienteering champion on ten occasions. The jacket rule is important and very welcome from a safety and common sense point of view - I myself would never show up to a Hill/Fell/Mountain/Trail race without a full kit (bumbag, containing waterproof top/bottoms, gloves, hat, compass, whistle, map and emergency food). The race director has the final say on what is then necessary. As a jacket is now non-negotiable and MANDATORY I will have it on my person for every race. |
| Paul O'Grady | Jan 16 2015, 5:31pm | In my option people are missing the materiality and proportionality point - and also in my opinion to win some sort of 'holier than thou' contest that has seemed to have developed. I have no doubt that when running long distance races in Norway, the Scottish Highlands, the Himalyas, or flying a plane, a hat is a very necessary item that should not be left to personal responsibility. I have never seen anyone turn up for an IMRA race wholly unprepared or incorrectly dressed. I have never turned up incorrectly dressed or prepared. Everyone is different, everyone requires different levels of clothing. I also believe that this rush to set rules comes from a post Celtic tiger era that has contributed to the rise of the compliance department. Where does this leave personal responsibility and more importantly personal freedom? What has compliance ever really achieved. What will checking someone's kit at the finish achieve if there is a problem???? This is all down to personal responsibility - an issue that is no an issue in IMRA. This is not a nanny state. We are not talking about clear and obvious risk taking - such as going up Lug in the morning in your boxer shorts. But yet people are resorting to such a level of analogy. I believe that there should be guidance but this guidance should not be as prescriptive as a rule that can result in a DNF. I believe that if someone is disqualified on Sunday because they turned up with a hood instead of a hat, then the growing compliance department within IMRA has gone too far. Let's keep the extreme/straw man examples to a minimum please. No one disagrees that running for 3 hours in Norway requires a hat. The materiality and proportionality issue on shorter 'league' races is being completely ignored by the parts of IMRA who believe that a run in the mountains is a life threatening experience. I do not believe that these are the views of the majority of the members. The majority of those that attend the AGM is a different thing. In the past, the director was given a 'kit' discretion. There was no problem with this system because those races were the shorter and more popular league races. Longer races had mandatory kit. That system worked. We have no removed the races directors discretion with a permanent rule for no good reason - apart from the compliance department thinking that a prescriptive rule was a good idea. I will be turning up on Sunday properly prepared, as usual, but I should be doing that out of personal responsibility, not because Richard will be looking in my bag at the finish line. What I choose to wear to a league race in July is a different matter - and I strongly believe that is my decision - as it has been for the past years, without issue. Apologies for the spelling - this was typed out on an iPhone! |
| Jim Fitzharris | Jan 16 2015, 6:19pm | Paul, I have already said more than enough on this but must respond to your latest message. I did not quote an extreme example: I was talking about the exact same event last year in milder conditions than are expected to prevail on Sunday. You accuse others of quoting extreme examples but you are the first to mention the Himalayas or the Scottish Highlands! Someone did mention Norway OK but I believe that was valid. I did some calculations on the wind chill during the famous Wicklow Ultra/Wicklow Trail back in 2013 and came up with an estimated figure of minus 8 C on the exposed section of the board walk on White Hill! There were people that day running in shorts ….... As for flying a plane with a hat, the plane reference was to the importance of safety, not to wearing a hat while flying! With respect, I cannot believe that you have never seen someone turn up for an IMRA race wholly unprepared or incorrectly dressed. There is a small coterie of IMRA runners who consistently run in singlet and shorts (that are a lot less modest than some boxer shorts!) with no backup kit whatsoever irrespective of the time of year or the weather conditions. I have seen it regularly. That kind of inane “macho not mucho†competition is far more unacceptable than a “holier than thou†one. By the way, the Competition Rules on the website specify a jacket and a space blanket for Winter League races! I am sure as the season progresses, adaptations will be made but I suspect a jacket of some sort will always be mandatory. The people making these decisions have very extensive mountain experience and, in some cases, are qualified mountain rescue personnel. I believe that their views are worth listening to. Yes, personal freedom is important but it should not be at the expense of the “freedom†of the race director and his volunteer team to be able to go home satisfied after a well-run event and not be delayed or traumatised by the experience of tending to an ill-equipped hypothermic runner who has had the misfortune to have had an accident. I have said this before on the Forum but rights and obligations are interlinked. Freedom can never be totally unfettered as it will impact on the rights or freedom of others - that is the interdependence of humanity. |
| Alan Ayling | Jan 16 2015, 6:44pm | Paul - While I agree with a lot of your points, there is one part I think you have wrong - "I have never seen anyone turn up for an IMRA race wholly unprepared or incorrectly dressed. I have never turned up incorrectly dressed or prepared." "In the past, the director was given a 'kit' discretion. There was no problem with this system because those races were the shorter and more popular league races. Longer races had mandatory kit. That system worked. " - you may not have turned up incorrectly dressed/prepared, but plenty of people have done, on many occasions. The old system worked to a point, but there were occasions where people went as far as to argue petulantly with RDs and run without the right kit regardless of the rules. We've been lucky that any of the accidents which have happened in IMRA have not led to serious consequences. We can't ride our luck forever. The new rule isn't the answer to everything, of course it's not, but it's a sensible measure for the present time. We'll have to see how it works out and review things in due course if the committee deems it necessary. |
| Brian McGuckin | Jan 16 2015, 7:27pm | I have to partially agree with both sides in this debate and won't go over them again so instead I suggest an extra first aid volunteer track the runners around the course equipped with a backpack of first aid supplies and maybe a heat blanket this would be considered a non running volunteering role. |
| Paul O'Grady | Jan 16 2015, 8:03pm | Finally we are starting to get some balance. Jim for the avoidance of doubt, I considered all your contributions to be reasonable - I wasn't putting your comments into that extreme or 'holier than thou' category. Alan, in my view whether or not someone turns up correctly dressed is a subjective view - not an objective one. What you consider as turning up properly dressed could be wholly inappropriate for me - and I am the only one who can make that decision. If the compliance department consider that running tights are now mandatory kit - as there are many people, including someone as fair as Jim, that thinks shorts are inappropriate at this time of year - then Clydesdales such as myself would not be able to run the races. I am 15 stone - down from the 17.5 stone when I first joined, but if I was wearing a tshirt, jacket, hat, leggings and socks, I could end up with hyperthermia - even in January. If I run in a long sleeve tshirt and shorts on Sunday, at 15 stone, I would still be generating a significant additional amount of heat then those lighter runners in jackets and leggings. This is where personal responsibility vs the compliance department comes in - I will be turning up in appropriate clothing for me, as opposed to for you - a rule does not take these differences into account. I am delighted to hear that the rule will be reviewed - a fairer or more balanced version of the rule, in my opinion would be that you are required to turn up with a jacket or hat for all races, and it is the race director who decides if either or both of these items can be dispensed with, depending on their analysis of the situation. Mountain rescue members views should of course be listened to - but they should not be making unilateral changes of this nature without some sort of consultation - their views should not be superior to my rights. I be,I've these changes, such as hats and jackets for league races in summer will actually impact on my ability to participate in the sport. And those views were not considered (or sought) as part of this decision. |
| Paul O'Grady | Jan 16 2015, 9:06pm | Sorry - iphone is doing a very poor job of reading my mind. I only want to open up one can of worms at a time! That paragraph should have read: I am delighted to hear that the rule will be reviewed - a fairer or more balanced version of the rule, in my opinion, would be that you are required to turn up with a jacket AND hat for all races, and it is the race director who decides before the start of the race if either or both of these items can be dispensed with, depending on their analysis of the situation. |
| John J Barry | Jan 16 2015, 11:32pm | Paul, How does the race director know what the conditions are like 300 to 500 meters his/her head? (Galtee Mor was a prime example of that last year) That somebody might have to walk back on a chilly Irish evening of a Leinster/Munster event. Remember there is a lot of inexperienced people participating in those Wednesday evening events and are more prone to having an accident. Making the jacket / hat as a minimum is removing that decision from the Race Director which is a very welcome decision. I really can't understand your objection to a very simple rule change that may save somebody from a very uncomfortable descend of a mountain. |
| Paul O'Grady | Jan 17 2015, 12:36am | John, Galtymore is an Irish Championship Race. There are uncontroversial and mandatory kit requirements for these races, therefore, and with all due respect, your point does not add anything to this debate. If you head up Galtymore without a jacket and a hat then there is no amount of race rules that can help you - but that's a separate point. Also when you describe Wednesday runners as inexperienced and more prone to accident, I'm not sure what these people are inexperienced in? Most people have been running since 2 years of age. If you can run, you can run a Wednesday race, there is no extra experience required. Ticknock, Bray head, Howth Head, the hellfire club, the Sugar loaf, tibradden, cruagh are climbed by families with young children, let alone buggies every weekend - we are no different or special. IMRA league races are not a dangerous or extreme sport, going for a run in the outdoors during the summer is not a risky adventure and these requirements are simply excessive. They are disproportionate and excessive and stem from this culture of excessive rules and regulation and oversight for fear that people can be blamed for the lack of personal responsibility of an other. That simply does not make sense. Going onto a GAA pitch or a rugby pitch has a higher chance of an injury, let alone a serious injury. To be honest, there is nothing wrong with an uncomfortable descent of a mountain. It happens. A jacket won't stop that. The fear mongering regarding sitting in remote parts of Ireland, while waiting for a helicopter, with a broken leg, with no jacket and suffering from hypothermia has never and probably will never happen during a Wednesday race, so by all means if you want a jacket, bring one, but please don't force your views on me. I'm quite happy to hobble down in a tshirt. |
| Kevin O'Riordan | Jan 17 2015, 2:49pm | There are definitely highly inexperienced runners doing Wednesday night races. And the distinction between a league race and a championship race is somewhat blurry these days. Seefingan is an example of one league race that is pretty much championship grade in my opinion and there are others. Hellfire's been relegated to the Mickey mouse league in spring. Given most people don't read the forum on a regular basis, consistency in application of the rules is best in my opinion. That way people get used to always having a jacket and a hat and don't get caught out by surprise as they would if it was a rule applied on an ad hoc basis. |
| Ronan Hickey | Jan 17 2015, 11:28pm | The rule is brought in to ease the pressure on Race Directors trying to second guess what the weather is like or what changes can happen. It gives a clear indication to beginners of what is required. Don't assume that anyone who rocks up to a Wednesday LL race is used to being out on the mountains. I was at a Howth race where a guy happened to be cycling by and just signed up on the spot to race. (He bloody beat me too, the git!) The distinction between League and Championship race can, as Kevin says, be very blurred, how about Tonelagee? It's a championship race but only 5K long. And a few years ago Bray Head LL race was run in a ferocious storm, break an ankle on the far summit there and you would be in a lot of trouble without a jacket. I was at this year's AGM (it was tough to get a ticket tbh, touts must have made a killing) and it was passed without a murmur. "The Committee" aren't some shady Bilderburg group. They are composed of members like the rest of us, ones who have brought their volunteering to the next level in order to ensure that IMRA continues. And for that, they tend to get little but abuse. Richard and his team have no interest I'm sure in playing power games or flexing their committee muscles to bring irritating laws into effect. Sure, some races probably won't need a jacket. But why leave the decision as to whether a race requires or doesn't require one to an already overloaded and beleagured Race Director? It's just another rule. The rules say bring a jacket, so bring a jacket. If this is too onerous for you then I'm sure there are Continuity IMRA runs where you are left to your own devices as regards personal safety. |
| Connie Dottino | Jan 18 2015, 12:02am | Wow!! An argument...so rare in Ireland!! I agree with you Paul 100%. I am one of those irresponsible runners, if you like, who runs in shorts and is probably quite inexperienced to run on wednesdays nights. I do have a certain contempt for too many rules and I find obsessive concern with safety annoying in all aspects of life. I like to live, not obsess about dying. One of the main reasons I fell for mountain running was the lack of all these excessive rules and safety measures that apply to so many events!!! You mention experience...how can anyone become experienced at anything without being inexperienced first and making a few mistakes!! Can I just clarify... I can't speak for all 'unprepared' runners but as far I am concerned, I consider myself an adult in full charge of myself and I wouldn't blame anyone for anything that might happen to me. I am fully aware of the chances I take. It's not that one is stupid and is not aware of the dangers, it's just that we all have different concepts of what dangerous means. I've trekked The Andes, and most mountains in Ireland look more like hills than mountains to ME! I'm a tough little mongrel who's never broken any bones and can walk for hours. Most IMRA runs seem pretty safe to me. In saying that, I did get a taste of what it's like to get cold when I got lost in Galtymore last year. I will be better equipped for the next race where the route is NOT marked as I am pretty new to orienteering. Still, I feel in Ireland one is never too far from a pub :-D! For most races where the route is marked, I still feel the risks are quite low. All that said, I can imagine how nasty it'd be for a latina to be lying in the cold with an injury so I think I'll go for full length leggings for the winter league!!! I can also see that people in charge feel a sense of responsibility for us runners and therefore, for your sake, I WILL comply, although I find excessive concern with safety a little bit OTT. I've had enough of all that with modern motherhood!!! :-D |
| Karl Corcoran | Jan 18 2015, 5:21pm | I'm lost folks.... Can someone tell me in simple English what the new rule is. Is it simply a Rain Jacket? Is it a Rain Jacket with or without a hood? Does it matter if there is no hood? Do I need a hat? Many Thanks. |
| Val Jones | Jan 19 2015, 8:45am | I can understand the race director requesting a hat in yesterday's race, and other winter runs, but I thought the mandatory requirement for all runs is just a jacket. It's at the discretion of the race director to require extra items. |
| Richard Nunan | Jan 19 2015, 9:44am | From Gareth Little - earlier in this same forum post. "As of 2015, all runners must carry at all times during each race (with the exception of Killiney Hill), a minimum of a shower and windproof jacket. Additional kit(such as hat) may be required for some of the longer races. The race directors for these races will let you know closer to the event. This rule will be reviewed as the season progresses. " |
| Jason Kehoe | Jan 19 2015, 1:48pm | Two points to note: Must 'carry' does not mean must 'wear'. With a bumbag on your waist with both items in it there is zero disadvantage to your performance. What makes anyone think they will be uncomfortably hobbling down a mountain if something goes wrong? If someone has a painful to move non weight bearing injury at the turnaround point at Bray on a nice day of the Leinster League, when it still gets very cold after sunset (4mins after race start in April!), and they decide to have no kit with them, how do they imagine that situation will pan out for them in their head?! Dig in until help arrives? Hot and sweaty soon turns into being cool just 10mins later as they assess the damage while sitting on cold ground and they haven't even called help yet. They are relying on a competitor or marshal to sound an alarm. They then need to hope there is a team of at least 4 strong lads (who also possibly don't have kit) to carry them partially off the mountain while someone runs back to the start (if no phone around) and then you need to wait for mountain rescue to reach you. If things don't go as you imagine I can't see it being quicker than 50mins~ before you get an extra layer and hat on you and another 30mins before rescue reaches you. I did summit marshal at LL Bray on a gorgeous clear and calm evening in 'warm gear' and my hands were numb in gloves after just 30mins waiting for first runners. The thoughts of having to spend another 90mins and likely more with someone in trouble after giving up my jacket and hat is not something I would be overly keen to do in such a situation and I hope no one has expectations that a marshal or competitor should provide it. |
| Paul O'Grady | Jan 19 2015, 2:34pm | I'm not having a go at you Jason, but your comment just arrived during lunch! Arguments like we need this new rule because of a "painful to move non weight bearing injury at the turnaround point" is simply scaremongering - as is "if you get injured darkness could set in before you get down the mountain, any you could easily get lost up there!", as is "if you have a serious injury and a helicopter cannot get to you, your closet help is up to 45 minutes away...not a very pleasant place to be if you are sitting in the mud waiting for help.", as is "Jon Tvedt, Norwegian mountain runner died on January 11th 2009 during a training run.", as is "We've been lucky that any of the accidents which have happened in IMRA have not led to serious consequences. We can't ride our luck forever.", as is "a few years ago Bray Head LL race was run in a ferocious storm, break an ankle on the far summit there and you would be in a lot of trouble without a jacket." There has been no empirical data put forward by the side supporting this rule change - just fictional worst case scenarios. The statistics are all on the side that a jacket is not necessary during the summer - i.e. an injury has never been made worse by the clothing the injured person was or wasn't wearing. We haven't had a problem because it isn't a problem. A statistic of zero exacerbated injuries over twenty years and probably over 1000 races is statistical proof that this isn't an issue. The only factor that has changed is views of the Committee. Therefore the rule is being changed for no good reason - or simply for the sake of imposing personal views on the group as a whole. Again, in the hope of keeping this debate slightly realistic, I am only suggesting that the new kit change rule does not apply to the summer or trail league (or at a minimum left to the race directors discretion) - winter or long distance leagues are different. I am also not suggesting that the IMRA militia prevent people from running who turn up with a jacket during the summer - we are all different and we all know what we do and don't need to bring with us - as we are all adults. If you want a jacket, bring one - but don't make me go along with your great idea just because you think it is a great idea. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go and concoct a farcical story to conclusively support my argument - its a story about Johnny 40 Coats, the young lad who died of heat exhaustion and spontaneously combusted from wearing too many clothes and a hat while out running in Ireland in June. |
| Kevin O'Riordan | Jan 19 2015, 2:57pm | Stastically, we haven't had a problem because the numbers partaking in Irish events are smaller and the sport is younger than our counterparts in other countries. The same "it'll be grand" attitude prevailed in UK fell running until luck ran out and a few deaths and very awkward court cases for the race directors meant more care had to be shown in terms of basic safety requirements for competitors. I don't like strawman style "What if all your limbs were amputated and you had to x, y, z" arguments either but it's a fact that after going from running to walking/standing/sitting, you get cold extremely quickly, even in relatively decent weather. All it takes is a twisted ankle, a very common injury to slow you down. To date, people have been okay because other competitors/walkers have lent clothes to people to get back down off the mountain. But it's not really fair to those people to be relying on them having to carry extra gear so someone without the gear can avail of it in an accident situation. Having everyone bring extra layers eliminates any competitive disadvantage. |
| Brendan Lawlor | Jan 19 2015, 3:04pm | Paul - you say ‘There has been no empirical data put forward by the side supporting this rule change - just fictional worst case scenarios.’ In early December I posted... 'For any of the raised eyebrow brigade there are two reasons why this is such a good idea 1) the weather can change during a race and your nice sunny start can turn into a nasty windy shower 2) if you hurt yourself during a race ( as an average of 1 person does in every two races) you will get cold very quickly (irrespective of the weather) and hypothermic in minutes in cold or windy conditions' So the association is currently dealing each year with approximately 15-20 incidents of injured runners hobbling down the mountain or assisted by other runners, or stretchered off by mountain rescue as happened in at least two cases in the last 24 months. People in support of this change are not inventing an issue or trying to scaremonger Its not about a nanny state or some imagined compliance department. Its a long overdue and very sensible rule change- our colleagues in Northern Ireland and the UK have had strict mandatory kit requirements for several years and for IMRA to continue to ignore this safety 'best practice' would be very foolish |
| Paul O'Grady | Jan 19 2015, 3:20pm | Brendan, you still haven't privided any facts to support your argument. Yes we do get 15 injuries a year - but how many of them happened during the Leinster League and how many of them were made worse by a jacket. I don't see the material difference being made by the jacket - it can't unsprain and ankle and nobody suffered from hypothermia in August - so it is an over zealous rule change. I've just looked at the NIMRA website and they have kit requirements for their weekend races - but not for their shorter summer evening races. Not that simply aping another organisation was ever a proper reason for doing something. If you can provide even one incident where the lack of jacket made a leinster summer league injury worse, I will accept your argument. Getting a little bit chilly doesn't count. |
| Brendan Lawlor | Jan 19 2015, 3:33pm | Paul, if you get injured and you stop running you will get cold, if you get cold and you put on a jacket you will not be as cold - I really don't know how much simpler I can make the argument or what further facts you are looking for. Having or wearing a jacket will not prevent injuries during hillraces - it will assist the entire field if the weather changes during a race as it often does and it will assist injured runners (and the people stopping to help them) for getting mild hypothermia. However, we are going round in circles here and I suspect your mind won't be changed |
| Gavan Doherty | Jan 19 2015, 3:40pm | Hi Paul, I don't think the rule has been introduced as a direct result of a past issue. As Kevin pointed out it's not for your personal comfort or protection, but it's for the comfort of the Directors & Officers and their assessment of the risk of a more serious incident which would leave them exposed (to legal action, not the elements). Oddly enough I agree with a lot of the points you're making but I don't feel I have 'rights' in a volunteer organisation where others are doing all the work and taking the associated risk. If they're running the show I'll go with their rules. If I want to change the rules I'll organise a race or go on the committee. Your perspective might change if you took on one of the more onerous non-running volunteer roles. Your arguments would also carry much more sway. How about Race Directing one of the Wednesday nights this year?! See you on the hills. |
| Paul O'Grady | Jan 19 2015, 3:43pm | Fair enough - argument over. Getting a little bit cold is clearly a major health and safety issue for the organisation as a whole, the risk of which deserves a DNS or a DNF. I'm glad we cleared that up. The next time I am out running and I get a little bit cold, I will be really annoyed that I don't have IMRA around to blame. I'm sorry Brendan, but if this change (to make a now mandatory rule) was made out of a fear that someone would get a little bit cold - in June, July or August - then it is ridiculous. It is an overzealous change made by a minority - simple as that. What's next - the requirement to run with a set of crutches? But yet, that change would provide more of a solution to the potential injury risk then a jacket. |
| Ronan Hickey | Jan 19 2015, 3:52pm | Yeah, mandatory jacket? Ye should just zip it. Can we get on to the serious issues for 2015, like why we still don't have "% of Winner's Time" on an individual's Results Page :-) |
| Paul O'Grady | Jan 19 2015, 4:10pm | Gavan, your pseudo legal argument doesn't make sense - it is bordering an urban legend at this stage. There a number of major holes in that argument. 1) The issue of causation - IMRA does not cause any injury - if an Irish boxing governing body were not held liable for an injury, then neither will IMRA. 2) The voluntary assumption of risk that people take by entering these races - with the associated waivers that everyone signs and published rules that we are all aware of. If someone gets injured on a mountain - which is an inanimate object, guess what - it's their fault. 3) An evening walk in the hills in Ireland is not something could not be categorised as an unusual or dangerous activity or something that the race director had peculiar knowledge of a risk and didn't warn the rest of us. (Not putting tape across a major hole - or running a race close to a cliff edge would be a different matter). 3) Athletics Ireland's cross country races - which is presumably the best practice in this country - as opposed to anywhere else in the world - don't require a jacket - why are our races different? So whether or not a race director, or IMRA, will have met or breached their duty of care, will never turn on the presence of a mandatory jacket rule. I really don't see how a Judge could blame a race director or IMRA if someone falls and hurts themselves while not wearing a jacket but while going for a run up three rock during a summer's evening. Regarding your other point - I have always put myself forward for non running volunteer roles - along with more non-running volunteer roles than were required. I haven't put myself forward to direct a race as I know full well that there are members out there that will moan as to how I directed race - such as letting someone run without a jacket, or how the sky fell because I allowed someone to register at 7.20 or the chaos that ensued when I allowed someone to park in a single occupancy car - or other such crazy disregarding of an opportunity to ram a "rule" down another persons throat, who is just trying to get a bit of fresh air after a long days work. To be honest - over the last few years IMRA have developed a thing for rules - and enforcing rules - I just don't want the hassle of being told that I don't enforce enough rules. By all means, if any race director needs a hand, I will be more than happy to give it - even to the loss of my own race. |
| Stuart Scott | Jan 19 2015, 4:37pm | This discussion started off entertaining and is now getting a little tedious! The original jacket -v- hat query was a legitimate question, and was very ably answered by Jim's second point. Both were things that had crossed my mind too. Since then it's all gotten a bit farcical. Everyone generates different amounts of heat while they're running but this rule is to cover those unlikely situations when problems do occur. For anyone who disagrees, a simple experiment is just to sit in the front garden this evening before dinner and see how long you last! Try it again with a bucket of salt water (a reinvigorated 'icy bucket challenge' and subsequent donation to mountain rescue if you like), and then with an insulating layer between you and the ground and finally add the jacket. The body loses heat in four ways: evaporation, radiation, conduction and convection (for more info see http://www.webmd.com/first-aid/tc/cold-exposure-ways-the-body-loses-heat-topic-overview). While it's not a magical cure, a jacket will help slow down the effect of all four of these. Add the lack of energy (food stores depleted), tiredness and pain and the open mountain can quickly become a very unpleasant place to be. Above all this, and despite whatever personal views everyone might have, the elected Committee have introduced a rule and it was not a decision which would have been taken lightly. Those who disagree are entitled to their own opinion, but should not expect the Committee, Race Directors, fellow competitors nor mountain rescue personnel to carry the burden of responsibility if something does go wrong. Such an attitude is extremely selfish. At the same time, everyone is entitled to their opinion and valid discussion and it is great that this debate has been so open and level-headed! Stuart. |
| Stuart Scott | Jan 19 2015, 4:59pm | ------------ Tried to post this as a separate thread but I'm getting an application error: ------------ Hi Committee, The recent discussion over the 'unmentionable' has reminded me of something. For the past number of years, the Irish Orienteering Association has published the minutes of its Committee meetings online (http://www.orienteering.ie/about-us/minutes-of-ioa-meetings). This initiative has proved very successful and helps to highlight how much work they do. Without wishing to overload Daniela, would the IMRA Committee consider something similar? The same topics come up again and again (and then again the following year) and very few realise that every single one is taken note of and discussed by the Committee. Publicising the minutes would allow the community to see what decisions are made and help to explain the thought process behind them. They also would highlight how much hard work goes on behind the scenes. Thanks, Stuart. |
| Jeff Fitzsimons | Jan 19 2015, 5:10pm | Maybe the answer is an opt out clause at sign in? Anyone who disagrees with the nanny state can opt out of being helped if they become injured. They can crawl off the hill under their own steam. Such an opt out will also exclude the runner from the post race raffle however. |
| Diarmuid O'Colmain | Jan 19 2015, 6:39pm | Oh dear! This debate, perhaps argument would be a more accurate description, has gone on well past its sell-by date. Most of the points being made have been made many times at this stage, time to stop!! Yes it's good to have open debate but there is a limit. One thing I have noticed about the 'debate' is that (going back over the various posts last year and this year) the vast majority of individuals who have contributed have supported the committee decision. I do think it is just so unbelievably unfair to be putting the committee in the position of having to further defend their decision. There has been consultation with the members. The vast majority of members who commented on the matter were in favour of the rule. The committee took a decision. That should be the end of the matter. IMRA Committee members run a fantastic organization, put on a wonderful race programme, provide the best sporting website I have ever seen and invest enormous time and energy in the affairs of IMRA. They are elected democratically and I feel very strongly we should all respect them and accept their decisions with good grace, and not keep harping on at them. We don't have to agree with everything they decide, just accept their decisions and get on with it. Life's too short for all this crap! |
| Gareth Little | Jan 19 2015, 9:07pm | Paul, I see you are looking for some data on this issue? "There has been no empirical data put forward by the side supporting this rule change - just fictional worst case scenarios. The statistics are all on the side that a jacket is not necessary during the summer - i.e. an injury has never been made worse by the clothing the injured person was or wasn't wearing." I just had a quick dig through the mountain rescue archives and picked some instances of IMRA Wednesday night race injuries which may be of interest to you. Wednesday August 26th 2009 – Mountain rescue benefit race: Gentleman close to finish suffered a suspected broken ankle. Patient hobbled to finish where mountain rescue provided insulation and strapping for the ankle. A broken ankle was later confirmed by x-ray. Wednesday June 2nd 2010 - Scarr Race: Lady with suspected fractured ankle not far from Scarr summit and another lady with suspected wrist fracture. One casualty was able to be walked off the hill at a very slow pace and the other required a stretcher evacuation. Both were given jackets by fellow runners as both were suffering from cold. Wednesday August 18th 2010 - IMRA bubble-gum benefit race: Lady with deep cut to the lower leg. Patient was suffering from cold and was provided with a space blanket to deal with this. Patient required stretcher evacuation to an awaiting ambulance. Wednesday June 8th 2011 – Brockagh race: Gentleman with suspected fractured left ankle. A Jacket was provided to casualty who was suffering from the cold by a fellow runner. A point to note here is that a number of other runners stopped to help and they all had to be given extra layers by John Shiels (cameraman) as they were all suffering from cold while static. Patient was splinted and was assisted to an awaiting ambulance. Wednesday May 14th 2014 Djouce LL race: Two runners reported overdue to mountain rescue. Both runners showed up well after sunset when temperatures were dropping fast due to a clear sky that evening. Both were lucky as if they had have been lost longer they would have gotten into difficulty with the cold. After reading the above Paul, I hope you see the trend of insulation being required for some serious enough injuries that did and will still continue to happen on Wednesday night races during the summer months. I hope this post puts an end to the argument that jackets are not required for all IMRA events, including the summer ones. Thanks, Gareth |
| John Shiels | Jan 19 2015, 11:04pm | Just to echo Gareth's last post where I was mentioned. I have had to supplied the jackets, hats, emergency blankets, etc. on a number of occasions while photographing IMRA run.,That's what is in the racksac I carry, not camera gear. On Scarr I ended up getting extremely cold when the sun sun went down as I had at that stage given the casualties my both my jackets and emergency blanket. If you are happy running without a jacket in shorts and a singlet that's fine by me, but you will very quickly give you right arm for some wind protecting when you get injured and, at best, can hobble slowly off the hill, at worst have to lie there waiting for someone to come and rescue you. And don't forget that Mountain Rescue are all volunteers. John |
| Paul O'Grady | Jan 20 2015, 12:10am | Absolutely not Gareth - if anything you've proved my point that we definitely do not have any sort of an issue. Before you all rush to type 'one call out, is one call out too many', let's look at the figures and review the proportionality point. In 2009 there were 2389 Leinster league races run - resulting in one call out - or in percentage terms 0.042%. If the 2009 Leinster League was a Rugby League or a GAA league, and you assume 40 players per match that's 60 matches. I'm sure the GAA or the IRFU would give their right arm to have one player taken to hospital every 60 matches - for a team that's roughly every four seasons. In 2010 there were 2728 Leinster league races run - resulting in three call outs - or in percentage terms 0.11%. If the 2010 Leinster League was a Rugby League or a GAA league and you assume 40 players per match, thats 68 matches - or one player taken to hospital every 22 games - for a team that's roughly every two seasons. Again - a statistic any sporting organisation or club would give their right arm for. There hasn't been a call out since 2011. Based on a risk of somewhere between 0 and 0.1% jackets are not necessary and the rule is completely disproportionate. I also note that none of the injured were purely suffering from the cold - ie if they had a jacket, there wouldn't have been a need to call mountain rescue. All the injured cited needed acute medical attention/hospitalisation. We are very lucky to have mountain rescue - they provide a fantastic service, and please god none of us will ever need them - but the figures clearly show that imra is adding little or nothing on them as an organisation. Hill running is a sport - there are risks with any sport - but risks of 0.11% does not mean that you have an issue that you need to resolve, those figures actually show that we absolutely do not have an issue. The rule was changed for the sake of changing the rule - nothing more. |
| John Shiels | Jan 20 2015, 10:52am | First rule of holes..... stop digging! |
| Stuart Scott | Jan 20 2015, 10:55am | But it's the quickest way to Australia John! |
| Richard Nunan | Jan 20 2015, 11:08am | Hi Folks, As president of IMRA and on behalf of the IMRA committee I would like to close the door on this as I believe the posts are now subjective to our members being confused. The reason we have asked for people to carry a jacket at all races is so that people get into the habit of bringing jackets to all races. So that we have a baseline in terms of safety and that there can be no confusion about what race I need to a jacket to. This is our starting point so please work with us on this. The rule has been implemented based on the feedback of 3 AGM's. The committee will review this at our next AGM and make further decisions at that point. Thanks to all for your contribution. |
| Connie Dottino | Jan 20 2015, 11:16am | Seems fair :-) |
| Paul O'Grady | Jan 20 2015, 4:51pm | Uno Duce, Una Voce it is so. |
| John Condon | Jan 20 2015, 5:14pm | _______________________________________________________ |
| John MacEnri | Feb 14 2015, 6:07pm | I know, I know, there was a line drawn under this, but as I'm an infrequent forum reader, I've only just read the thread. I think the crux of Paul's argument about proportionality/discretion got a bit lost. https://www.imra.ie/photos/view/id/84036/ It was 24°C in Dublin that day. He was really only trying to make the point that in some summer races where distance is not extreme, location not terribly remote, weather may be excellent and conditions stable, having an unmovable rule about a jacket seems rather OTT. I like the fact that the forum promotes open discussion. I don't see why the thread was to be closed. Of course, if the rule is in place I'll abide by it, regardless of whether I agree with it. John |
| John Brennan83 | Apr 8 2015, 2:49pm | Hi All, Hoping to run Bray Head for starters. I have no problem following the jacket rule and will have one. My question is the following. Do I have to pin a number sheet through it? I will wear the jacket but I would rather not put pins through it. Is it OK not to wear the number sheet. Advance thanks for the reply. |
| Stuart Scott | Apr 8 2015, 2:56pm | Hi John, Your number just has to be visible at the finish so if you make sure to open your jacket before you cross the line you'll be grand. It is very hard to read flappy numbers at the finish though so just make sure it's easy to see. But fingers crossed it'll be warm and sunny in which case you'll just need to carry your jacket, not wear it! Stuart. |
| Brian Freeland | Apr 8 2015, 3:03pm | Hi Just wondering what has people tried from a carrying the jacket point of view for races, ie small rucsac/running vest/bumbag/armband? I ran the Brockagh Burst with jacket tied around me and it was none too successful... thanks brian |
| John J Barry | Apr 8 2015, 5:34pm | Any of the above will work. I'll be using a running vest. Alternatively there is jackets with a build in strap used when jacket is converted to a 'bum' bag. |
| Mick Hanney | Apr 8 2015, 8:40pm | A cycling jersey is a good option as the pockets on the back will easily take a jacket rolled up. |
| Brian Freeland | Apr 8 2015, 11:33pm | Cycling jersey a great idea, thanks guys for the comments. |
| Alan Lawlor | Jun 3 2015, 12:20pm | Will a survival/emergency foil blanket do as an alternative to carrying jacket? In an emergency it's far more effective than a light windproof jacket anyway |
| John Shiels | Jun 3 2015, 12:27pm | Sorry Alan, The jacket rule is a "rule" not a recommendation or suggestion. As its a rule it must be obeyed or you forfeit your race result. a foil blanket is a good idea to bring along as well. |
| Alan Lawlor | Jun 3 2015, 12:31pm | No problem. Thanks John |
| Richard Nunan | Jun 3 2015, 12:33pm | Interestingly, I ran the Hill and Dales(Newcastle AC) race last Thursday night. Loughshannagh Horseshoe a super 7km route with 3 nice peaks I turned up with my mandotary kit (Whistle, Compass, Coat and Waterproofs. The requirement on the night for the 7km race was full body cover. We were not allowed past the gate to the start line until each item was shown to the Marshall AT 7:25, Race Started 7:30. |
| Mick O'Brien | Jun 7 2015, 6:54pm | @Richard, the UK is a complete nanny state ... are you suggesting we follow them ! Most poeple would agree that is completely over the top, the IMRA jacket rule is already putting runners off. |
| Rachel Cinnsealach | Jun 7 2015, 11:09pm | Mick, maybe if you did more of the IMRA races you would understand the need for a jacket. Over the last few weeks there have been several injuries, one of which included mountain rescue being called. The runner had fractured her hip, she was in a lot of pain, she was immobile and had to wait until MR arrived. Several runners were able to offer her a jacket to keep her warm. As an organisation we put safety first. Nobody is being forced to do IMRA races, if people don't like the rules they don't have to race. They can find alternative events that suit them. |
