Irish Mountain
Running Association

Correct Technique for running down hills at speed

AuthorDateMessage
Brian O'ShaughnessyMar 10 2010, 10:00am
People talk about mountain running and that it's all about the descent.

So on the start of the decent from say Maulin do the best runners pick
points and zig zag down the mountain or go pretty much straight down?

Would be great if the site could post a few 'this is how it should be done'
videos on dealing with different terrain.

(BTW Thanks to Rachael and team for a very enjoyable and well organised race on the weekend)
Colm HillMar 10 2010, 6:06pmOff the summit, see Brian in a heap on the ground. Check he's still alive. See Peter 350m in front. Pick where you'll place your foot in 4 strides time and go for it. Straight down. If your going to fall, increase leg turnover speed or else look for a nice muddy, softish area and fall into that, roll back onto your feet and keep going. I've developed a habbit of thinking about where i'll place my feet but not thinking about the consequences if it doesn't go to plan.

I heard a rumor that what John Lenihans does is accelerate with every stride as he descends... that gets very scary when your on the edge of taking a massive spill on scree or something not so soft.
I know a few orienteers who's descending ideas revolve around the concept that the less time your feet are in contact with the ground the less chance you have of breaking, spraining, damaging ankles etc.

Or, the best way to increase downhill speed is to go orienteering(!) you learn to run fast in rough terrain - both up and down. Surely it can only be good for mountain running :)
Rene BorgMar 11 2010, 3:51amColm practically covers best practice if you are to believe the good folks from UK Athletics. A few practical things you can do to improve your descending skills are:

1. Improve fitness: The fresher your mind and your legs when you get off the summit the more in control you’ll feel
2. Improve balance: There’s multiple ways to go around this – dedicated balancing exercises (walking on a narrow beam, standing on one leg with your eyes closed, wobble boards etc.), increasing your core strength (a topic in itself), and increasing your leg strength (see below)
3. Improve strength: A strong lower body will “wobble” less. Again a topic in itself, but once you are properly conditioned one-legged plyometrics are great at stimulating the exact stress loading of downhill running. As Lydiard said a runner needs the strength of a ballet dancer not a weight lifter.
4. Increase leg speed: Basically “quick feet”, many team players have this come naturally but there’s endless way to practice this from doing lots of technical descending to performing exercises with cones and small hurdles. Plyometrics also have proven to improve your ability to get your feet off the ground quicker. The feeling of being "out of control" is basically because your brain can't handle the amount of input required for the speed you run at. But this is a trainable skill. When I started running 18kph probably felt like 20kph per hour and viceversa. As you get faster everything feels slower.
5. Increase coordination: This also helps with balance, but being able to move quickly without your form disintegrating or “weird” movements sneaking into your running will decrease chances of you inadvertently doing something you didn’t intend to do. The leg speed exercises help this and so do other running drills that require you to follow a set pattern of movement you aren’t used to (the UKA guys loved the hop-scotch, can’t say I do, but it gets the point across!)
6. Taping: Taping up your ankles with the correct technique will increase your proprioception (in this sense basically where your feet are in relation to your body) and make your ankles a more solid platform (especially if you are lacking in ankle strength)
7. Technique: A bigger topic and there’s probably more debate on this one. Common guidelines include keeping your feet below your centre of gravity rather in front, not bending forward or backwards from the hip (but staying straight), and as Colm says look about 10 feet ahead rather than straight down.

Kevin Shevels published a nice book called Downhill Techniques for Off-Road Runners which is available on TrailGuides.co.uk. The above is before going into the mental aspect, which undoubtedly is a huge factor, but work on the above an you should start to feel more confident which is a good start.

Anecdotally, I find it helpful to jump straight up into the air one or multiple times if I feel I get out of control on steep descents as this doesn’t break momentum but transfers some of the force into the vertical movement and gives you a few milliseconds extra to pick your next landing spot.
Alan AylingMar 11 2010, 5:59pmRene you're really wearing out that keyboard! Come on an EPIC mtb spin sometime and you'll learn the one thing you need to know about descending: "Let go of the bleedin' brakes!". Exactly the same applies to mountain running. Practice on that steep descent in Trooperstown, in no time you'll either be deadly or dead!
Alan AylingMar 11 2010, 5:59pmRene you're really wearing out that keyboard! Come on an EPIC mtb spin sometime and you'll learn the one thing you need to know about descending: "Let go of the bleedin' brakes!". Exactly the same applies to mountain running. Practice on that steep descent in Trooperstown, in no time you'll either be deadly or dead!
Paul NolanMar 11 2010, 9:13pmBrian

This might sound a bit weird but when I was lashing down hillsides I used to imagine being suspended by wires attached at hip level that took my weight, allowing me to glide down the hill using my feet for steering rather then carrying weight. My torso was the object that needed to be move smoothly down the hill, legs and arms just balanced and guided it. Think of a car on a rough road, the suspension (legs) is working furiously but the body (torso) is smoothly covering the road.

Each push off is an opportunity to apply an acceleration force or direction change. If each foot fall is light and fast you simply skip to the other foot when you land on something that gives or is uneven. Time spent in the air is time you can't trip on something.

If the angle is shallow lean forward, let your torso pull you down the hill. If it's steep, sit back, let your legs lead. Never on a rocky descent allow your head to get in front of your knees. Strong quads help greatly and handily can be conditioned by running up hill.

No matter what the runner in front of you is doing, you have to set yourself the task of doing it quicker to get past them. That's in your head, it comes with practice.

My motto as a youngster - 'if you don't fall every now and then you're not trying hard enough' put me in A&E twice. Later I knew the most important was to be in control, lying in a heap on the ground does nothing for your speed.

Don't forget to Enjoy It.
Colm HillMar 11 2010, 9:38pmWhat would people consider to be the most technical descent (or race) on the calender?
Eoin KeithMar 11 2010, 10:02pmThe master has spoken! Paul is one of the best descenders I've had the pleasure of watching pull away from me. I'd treat his advice with reverence!

Colm, for sustained technical descending I think the standout race is Croagh Patrick.
Rene BorgMar 12 2010, 1:07amAlan - Its amazing what time you can find when you're sleepless in a Singapore hotel room after a long day's work! Tried MTB, fell four times, was told I was doing well but gave it up immediately as I found the bruises affected my running. Hill running bruises are ok, MTB bruises, unacceptable!

I do run the Trooperstown descent regularly but given I've had lower leg injuries almost constantly since October and was only recovering from previous lower leg injuries in the year before I don't actually spend too much time thinking or training downhills (that's for later in my mind). I don't agree wholeheartedly with the notion that races are won on the downhill. They can be, bu I'd fancy gaining much more from uphills personally and after all even Ian Holmes can be put out of sight by runners of his class (like recently at Snowdon) even when he's descending very well.

Paul - Amazing reply!
Justin ReaMar 12 2010, 10:09amSome real pearls being dropped here. Nice thread!

One thing I've noticed when descending a moderate slope is a pretty obvious one:

The straight line is a lot faster.

You can often find yourself passing runners that are picking a flatter but more circuitous line whereas you concentrate on going over obstacles and going straight down. You also lose less energy by avoiding going sideways.

The main adaption you have is by moving up and down, and by varying the length of your stride.

Toughest descents: On rock - Croagh Patrick. On grass - Ben Gorm :-). Sustained - Galtymore, or Carrauntoohil
Jonathan McCloyMar 12 2010, 11:27amGreat Stuff!

Downhill is my favourite part of a race by far!

I know a few savage downhillers. One in specific applies Pauls suspension theory to the max and he is definitely the fastest downhiller I know, I always describe it as a controlled fall... for a couple of miles! But that's not to say it's the fastest all the time, for sure, using a track running style on open, not so rough ground can create serious speed.

I don't know if there is one in the IMRA calender, but BARF are organising a downhill race from the top of Donard later in the year. It was great craic last year! It would be interesting to see some serious speed coming down the black stairs!
Jason KehoeMar 12 2010, 12:36pmToughest Downhill for me so far is Croagh Patrick, super quick feet, agility and iron nerves to really try and accelerate. From the summit its a matter of jumping down onto a piece of loose slate, surfing it down hill 2 or 3 feet before jumping to the next piece...repeat. The last section is so treacherous with small and large jagged rocks sticking out of the ground at all angles, and that doesnt take into account the walkers you need to be so mindful of, had a nice spill here and the scar to show it.

Coming off Caher mountain in the Carrauntoohil race is also very intense as it's so steep that you should prob zig zag to some extent to maintain some sort of 'control' on this long descent on scree!

Camarahill downhill on the Lugnaquilla race is also very tough on the quads and core and plenty of places to be made up here for the brave in a race. Would love to try the grassy Ben Gorm but the Guinness after the Croagh Patrick race says otherwise...

Would really agree with Paul on "set yourself the task of doing it quicker to get past them." This is obviously always the case in a race but its a mental and confidence thing downhill. It's usually hard to pass the person in front as they should be taking the optimal route down so its a case of you either passing when the track opens up a bit or going even more 'offroad' to overtake. It's also quite demoralising for your competitor as there is only so fast they can go downhill because of their technical ability/confidence. E.g. if you pass someone going uphill the other person can work harder to try and hold you back or stay with you, but going downhill they are moving, generally, as fast as their fear of falling will allow them. Remember they are probably as fit as you as your both at that section at the same time. So you need to mentaly be more confident. Make sense?!?!

Just remember if you break both your legs on the downhill after this advice don't come running back to blame me! ;)

j.


Colm HillMar 12 2010, 1:11pmCamarahill is pretty steep... Its great fun when its slippery.

I've been asking around a few other orienteers ect and the two words that keep coming up are guts and fear. Less fear, more guts, higher finish placing.
Paul NolanMar 12 2010, 2:46pmMayo & the Mournes are were the hard hills lie. Croagh Patrick, Ben Gorm and the original straight up/down Nephin route are all demanding descents. Slieve Bearnagh in the Mournes is prehaps the greatest test of descending bravery I've faced.

Now to expand the scope of this thread, who are the fastest descenders you've ever seen?

My choices would be Francis Cosgrave & Joan Flanagan. Joan a picture of focused control, Francis a fearless disaster that somehow made it to the bottom intact.
Bruce ShenkerMar 12 2010, 3:16pmFrancis was so far ahead of me I would have never seen him, but I second Paul's notion on Joan, about 80 % of the up-down races in the 2000's I would have a substantial lead on her going up only to hear her steady footfall creeping up on me, surely to pass me on the final descent.
Brian O'ShaughnessyMar 12 2010, 3:47pm
Thanks Paul and the rest. I need to reread that advice a couple of times!Funny the only mountain runner I know (i've only run two races) was Joan Flanagan I use to work with her in Arklow . I'm doing the WAR race in April so hopefully this will help.
Eva FairmanerMar 12 2010, 4:30pmJoan Flanagan, to me is without doubt the best female downhill runner I have ever seen, truly awesome and never seemed to fall. I remember Carrauntoohil 2001 and the subsequent results/race report and these two comments...

"...the greatest reeling in was done by F40 Joan Flanagan who improved her position by 11 places on the descent"

"but I have to take my hat off to Joan Flanagan - 10th fastest descent!!

There was also a certain Fairmaner fella who, in that race finished second to John Lenihan but was over a minute faster downhill - now I am not biased.....
Jason KehoeMar 12 2010, 4:32pmNot sure if this will turn out properly on the message board but here was the top ten descenders by descent time from the Lugnaquilla race in 2009. I remember Will passed 20 people on the way down from the top! But look at Bernards time! Legend!!

finish ascent descent
time time time
Bernard Fortune 00:56:51 00:38:56 00:17:55
Leo Murray 00:59:40 00:41:02 00:18:38
Peter O'Farrell 00:53:48 00:35:04 00:18:44
Richard Healy 00:58:01 00:39:03 00:18:58
Stephen Cleary 00:59:25 00:40:25 00:19:00
William Powderly 01:06:34 00:47:12 00:19:22
Martin Francis 01:03:10 00:43:21 00:19:49
John Lenihan 00:55:24 00:35:26 00:19:58
Jason Kehoe 00:59:51 00:39:49 00:20:02
Hugh Kinsella 01:00:12 00:40:08 00:20:04


It was very well done by the statistician on boards.ie:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055455994&highlight=imra+thread&page=43

Pity we cant always have such great stats to compare all races.
Rene BorgMar 14 2010, 8:30amWhile speaking of great descenders from the ranks of IMRA, I think John Brooks should be mentioned. Winner of the Ben Nevis race (not an easy descent as I think Cormac and Niamh will attest) and, to my understanding, possibly the fastest descender on Croagh Patrick (though I don't remember the time).

-Rene
Peter O'FarrellMar 15 2010, 11:14amIn one of the races of the past 10 years on Irish soil John and John, Lenihan and Brooks, descended in 16.48 and 17.20 respectively to finish Lugnaquille (2004) in 49.31 and 49.54. Alan McKibbin descended in 17.00 the same day.
Gerry Healy destroyed the field and himself to top out on the ascent 50 seconds ahead in 31.44 but cruised back down to finish 12th.

John Brooks descent time off Croagh Patrick was about 13 minutes the day he broke the record to finish in 42 minutes.
Eoghan McKenna is an unbelievable descender and the mighty Joan "the bird" Flanagan has been rightly lauded earlier in the thread.
Mike JordanMay 16 2017, 1:34pmSpambots get a bad rep but I thank this one for unearthing this really interesting thread on downhill technique/strategy from a few years ago!
Conor MurphyMay 16 2017, 6:16pmThe Zig Zags in the Carrauntoohil East run is a great descent, real flat out stuff, with a big drop off the side of the path to add a nice sense of danger to the adrenaline rush.
Justin ReaMay 17 2017, 1:26pmThe "All Out" descent can come at a cost. In the 2004 Lug race that Peter refers to, Lenihan made such an effort to win that a week later, on Carrauntoohil Brooks took his 14 year unbeaten record. Lenihan went on to win the race five more times, but that Lug descent was savage.
Moire O'SullivanMay 17 2017, 5:39pmI have the current great pleasure of racing with the Northern Ireland lot in the NIMRA Champs.

An absolutely incredible descender who I have had the pleasure to watch recently is Diane Wilson. She simply floats down the Mourne Mountains slopes!

Once tried to keep with her running down Doan during the Loughshannagh Horseshoe Race... needless to say, I failed miserably.

I know she sometimes ventures into IMRA territory these days, so be warned!
Jeff FitzsimonsMay 17 2017, 10:31pmBest descender I have seen has to be Bernard as for one season I had a tendency to be ahead of him at the summit of a few Irish Champs races only to have the absolute fear of God put in me by the thought of him catching and then blasting past me. I just couldn't get up the hill quick enough to avoid him passing me. The man just eats the ground up and whilst it's heart breaking to watch him streak ahead of you it's hard not to pause for a second in the heat of battle to admire the sheer speed the man goes downhill at.

In terms of toughest/best descent I have to give a mention to Black Stairs route off Donard. In the white heat of a race situation it's a brilliant test of courage and capability. And the locals know how to descend so it's a tough ask to be competitive.
Warren SwordsMay 18 2017, 4:06pmI've been creating Strava segments for most of the Leinster League downhills. Essentially, picking the longest downhill of the race.

Michael McCarthy was the fastest last night (at least the fastest that is uploading to Strava.) Running the 5.9km in 21.25.

https://www.strava.com/segments/9544198?filter=overall

Diarmaid Collins and Diarmuid Meldon were quickest on Scalp.

https://www.strava.com/activities/980386575/segments/24047075075

Graham Bushe was quickest on Carrick.

https://www.strava.com/segments/7360826?filter=overall

Might be a bit of craic doing a Strava Downhill Competition for the Leinster League with points awarded in the same manner as the league.
Hannah MootsMay 18 2017, 5:00pmI've been wondering about downhill running etiquette. I've only done a few races and I'm wonder about how passing on a downhill works. Let's say I'm running downhill and I notice someone who's coming down the hill faster and will need to pass me (and let's say it's a single track trail). Do I get to the side right away, or when there's a spot with a bit more space? And how do they let me know they want to pass? Thanks!
Stuart ScottMay 18 2017, 5:11pmHannah, personally I would hold my ground until I saw a spot where I could pull in without breaking stride. And if I were overtaking I would stay put until I saw a suitable section beside the path to overtake safely. Either way, I feel the person in front should have priority but they should show a bit of consideration too where possible. I guess it depends on the race though - bottlenecks are inevitable at times and sometimes there's nothing to be gained from overtaking. Then again, there's a reason I'm at the back of the field!
Peter O'FarrellMay 18 2017, 5:17pm@Hannah:

If you are being lapped or have taken an early start - Elbows in and pull in out of the way of the faster runner

If you are ahead of someone and you are both racing each other for a place -
Elbows out and hold your line. It's up to him or her to get past.

Here's a great photo of the battle between the greats
https://www.imra.ie/photos/view/id/10583/
Alan AylingMay 18 2017, 7:11pmAnd if you think their passing technique is unmannerly, a well-aimed spit as they pass will get your point across.

I will let John Brown decide if I am joking or not.
Hannah MootsMay 18 2017, 10:07pmHaha, thanks! :)
Mick HanneyMay 19 2017, 7:50pmJust saw this on facebook. Theres a downhill challenge.
https://vimeo.com/19232432
Conor MurphyJun 5 2017, 8:36pmErotic descents?

Well, I guess there's the Paps, which IS actually a great descent...
Alan AylingJun 8 2017, 7:31am^ Ah here...
On a genuine note, if you want a descent guaranteed to get you your jollies, come to the Djouce race next Wednesday. If that last downhill doesn't give you the horn you can have your money back*

*Offer not available to pre-entry or voucher customers
Pól Ó MurchúJun 16 2017, 9:24amCandice has some photos from Djouce... :-) it would seem she took your advice Alan... :0) offending posts have now been removed and a few subtle changes to the forum post to see if that will work...Not quite sure how this post keeps getting hit...Kevin looking into.
Kieran Lynch73Jun 17 2017, 6:10pmKenny Stuart and Fred Reeves at Kilnsey Cragg fell race about 1978. The race starts at about 32 mins. Some break neck desending. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdgnK7bn4jQ
Dylan WaldronJun 29 2017, 4:05pmThe Snowdon annual race has one of the best downhills anywhere as well, with some astonishingly fast times. Craogh Patrick has to be the most technically challenging "flat out runnable" downhill in Ireland, one thing i would say is often neglected in downhill is upper body strength - it helps stabilize the core and balance, and downhill is more akin to an 800m running skillset than distance running !