GPS at IMRA races
| Author | Date | Message |
|---|---|---|
| Joe Lalor | Sep 19 2017, 9:33pm | There was an interesting post on the forum today re GPS at IMRA races. I suppose I am long enough gone from the decision making process and was never near the competitive edge to be considered to have a vested interest in this issue. Therefore I feel happy to raise the issue for discussion although I hold strong views on it. Certain races were always considered to have a navigational element. The Wicklow Round had written into its rules that no GPS, no external navigator or pacer could be used. I know this because I put this rule in place when I set it up. Likewise the NC challenge races, the Wicklow Way Relay and the Dublin Peaks had an intuitive understanding that navigational aids (other than map and compass) were not allowed, although this may not be written down in some rule book. In these races finding the shortest or quickest route is part of the appeal and they are not always won by the fastest runner. I think this is a large part of the attraction. I would argue that fixed route races like the Championship Races should also contain the skill of finding (or not) ones way and a GPS should only come in to play when a runner has DNFed and trying his/her way home. Since these races were set up thing have moved along considerable. GPSs are much more common (they even find their way onto the pitch in Croke Park) and the membership has had a great turnover. Maybe it is time for Luddites like myself to move on and let the new technology play a part but I would prefer if this was done by consensus rather than the new reality to become the de facto rule by virtue that many new members are not aware of the rules or ethos under which these races were set up. I am not naïve enough to believe that a no GPS rule could be enforce on the hills but my near 30 years of knowing IMRA members I strongly believe if this was the agreed rule we would have very little trouble with it. Over to you the floor is open... |
| Maike Jürgens | Sep 19 2017, 10:36pm | brilliant for raising the topic Joe. From the younger but still slow end of the spectrum, I have to say I agree with you on that the navigation skill based races and challenges should stay GPS free (although I have to admit I never tried using one and they are probably a good improvement as back up regarding safety). Here is my list of why I think using a map and compass and skill rather than a piece of electronics is a great thing: - we (or at least I) go mountain running to enjoy nature and be away from technology. so I dont want to bring more battery users than necessary - the sense of achievement when you successfully navigated from point A to B through thick mist in wind - the aspect often reiterated by mountaineers that map reading and compass using skills are essential because technology can fail (and maps can get blown away ... ) - i do also like the fact that route finding comes to play without a GPS more so than when having one so that a smart route choice can outperform a fast run, just adds to the excitement of the day - the discussions about different routes taken (and mistakes made) are one of the most enjoyable parts and the reason i wanted to do nav races in the first place. just my two cents. |
| Brían O'Meara | Sep 20 2017, 11:48am | Interesting post, Joe & Maike. Here’s my spiel. I’m primarily a fan of the unmarked open mountain and Nav Challenge races, and I believe the mental side of these, where runners get by on their wits, and try to outsmart competitors by choosing a better (admittedly in my case, often a worse) route, is most of the fun. Following a GPS route obviously completely takes away this challenge. However, perhaps a complete GPS ban may not be required. I (and I’m sure many others) use a bog-standard GPS watch which records my route, distance, altitude gained/lost etc for perusal after the race (Indeed, Strava’s flyby feature has proven comical in the past in terms of seeing where I and others have gone wrong mid-race – Djouce woods a few years ago being a high point). Maybe it’s worth dividing the GPS issue into watches that just record routes and don’t allow any race courses, mapviewing programs (e.g. OSI’s viewranger) etc to be uploaded/pre-programmed onto them , and those that do – with the latter being forbidden. (Warming to my theme) In fact there could be an argument to be made that race marking takes much of the mental side out of hill running. That’s just a personal opinion however. I’m conscious that occasional race marking is critical both in terms of ensuring property rights of non-IMRA participants, in terms of safety, and, crucially, for the sanity of the organisers of large attendance races (e.g. Leinster League races in particular, where a lack of marking can result in inexperienced participants being spread all over Wicklow), but I'm not in favour of race marking any weekend open mountain races. Also, if I want to get really pedantic, surely recce’ing routes before races could be argued as falling into the ‘taking away the route finding challenge on the day’ category also. Best not to delve any deeper into either of those issues, however….. In summary, perhaps an acceptable solution would be a rule that no route finding navigational aids other than a hard copy map and compass should be allowed at IMRA races. Bog-standard GPS watches should be permitted for those that like to have a record of their route on Strava or whatever, but electronic nav aids that allow pre-programming of routes etc should be banned, with those non-compliant being condemned to wander in the vicinity of Art’s Lough for all eternity… :) |
| Liam Vines | Sep 20 2017, 6:50pm | Perhaps the first rule should be to make sure that the people running the open mountain races have some idea of how to use there map and compass. Following is not the way to go. In fairness a gps is a great safety blanket for runners who are out trying to teach themselves how to navigate. Getting lost up around three lakes is great fun but getting lost is one thing not being able to get home is a completely different thing. I am a reccier I run and rerun my route then run it again.. What I don't do is give away my route via a gps file go get your own route :-) You can't stop technology Joe but you can make sure you know how to do things right when the batteries die. The Nav Challenges and orienteering are the way to learn no matter how good your gps is it won't find that orange and white flag for you. |
| Joe Lalor | Sep 20 2017, 7:46pm | GPSs are great, not suggesting we ban them. They are marvellous for recording your route and finding your way home. The issue is should they be used during a competitive race? |
| Warren Swords | Sep 20 2017, 8:22pm | Interesting points. I'm in total favour of continuing ban for Wicklow Round. Nav is an integral part of the challenge. I know there was a comment re Dublin Peaks. I've ran that race twice and didn't know there was a ban on gps. I didn't use one but it's not clear that there's a ban? On marked courses, I don't think there's any harm. It's only going to slow someone down. I think where courses aren't marked, there should be a ban. An outcome of a race could be decided by technology that other competitors may not have/afford. For some the essence of mountain running is reading a map, the contours, picking a line etc. It's guile v speed. That said I think GPS brings a new dimension for Leinster league. It's great to see Strava flyby and see who has quickest ascents/descends. |
| Liam Vines | Sep 20 2017, 9:00pm | Map and compass all the way Joe and Using the bit of pipe near the top of kippure to get back on the track down :-).. But imagine someone ending up somewhere over towards Seefingan and realising they are lost and there GPS on the table at home... it's like a some of our races Glacer Lakes stone cross and the likes you are only cheating yourself if you don't touch the points same with the gps I guess.. |
| Adrian Tucker RIP | Sep 20 2017, 9:41pm | Horses for Courses. Nice topic Joe, glad you brought it up. My thoughts: Navigation Challenge; I think the clue is in the name. Introduce the use of a GPS and it’s no longer a challenge. Wicklow Round; “This is a Personal Challenge” go out there and explore the Wicklow Mountains. Allow the introduction and use a GPS, the exploration and the challenge is gone. IMRA Championship Mountain Running event; get to the top and back down again in the quickest time possible – result – you are a mountain running champion. Introduce or allow the use of GPS and you diminish the skill of the Mountain Runner. Leinster/Summer/Winter/Trail League events; fully marked, follow the tape, follow the crowd, don’t need to think too much about it, the Nav work has been done for you – just go run, no requirement for GPS. Dublin Peaks/Glacier Lakes/Stone Cross Lug/Circuit of Glenmacnass/Avonbeg etc. The shear fun of getting lost and sharing tales of woe. Introduce or allow the use of GPS and the fun is gone, forever lost in the bog and the clouds!! Ticknock Tick-Tock event; the rules state: No GPS, No Watch, No Pacer. It’s pretty clear what talents and skill-set this event tries to explore. Glendalough Clover event; this event is fashioned on the European model of Ultra Trail Running. An event where a GPX file is available and GPS use encouraged. Allows for a more even playing field to those that may not have the local knowledge for a long-distance Trail event. There’s room for all. Perhaps it just needs to be re-stated/explained from time to time as to what is and is not permitted at particular events. Particularly so for the benefit of those new to the sport/event and are trying to find their way (pardon the pun!). And as the recent article in the Irish Times states: “the growing sport of mountain running caters for all participants from fun runners to elite athletes. Distances range from 3km to 128km over terrains from trails to mountain sides, with some climbing common to all.” A copy of the “IMRA Competition Rules” is available under the link “constitution” whereby some good information is available regarding the differing format of Race Types that are provided by the IMRA Annual Calendar. |
| Brendan Lawlor | Sep 21 2017, 8:29am | This is a tricky area which will only get trickier as technology progresses. Most Smartphones are now GPS devices and more and more watches are following suit. When we say ' ban GPS' do we mean no phones or watches allowed ? Or do we allow people to bring their phone and watches but ask them not to use the GPS capability and rely on the 'Spirit of IMRA / Honesty ' approach - until they find themselves hopelessly lost! Interesting discussion |
| Sam Scriven | Sep 21 2017, 10:31am | Several races, in particular some involving long distance and/or navigation, now have a phone in the mandatory kit, so it seems you can’t have your cake and eat it. I think there is already buy-in amongst the majority: Don’t use technology to ‘cheat’. Do use technology for keeping a record of your experiences, embrace the ‘fly-by’, and play safe in the mountains. Maybe a specific mention within the rules and/or details page for each event that electronic devices not be used to assist route-finding would copper-fasten what most people abide by anyway? |
| Brian Fennessy | Sep 21 2017, 9:21pm | Im a brutal runner, but the first year I did leg 1 f the stone cross relay I beat a number of good runners because they were poor navigators. I have a suunto gps watch and viewranger on my mobile phone. I also have a garmin etrex in my mountain walking bag. I actually enjoy using the map and compass, I like trying to become a better navigator in bad weather, white out snow conditions and in night time navigation. i've never been a fan of using gps bar to track my run or confirm my location just as a back up. I like using skills like handrails, reading contours, timing, pacing, aim off, attack points......all the things that make navigation in the mountains great fun and challenging. You dont always get it right but you always learn from your mistakes. For me personally gps makes me a very rusty map and compass user. And like anything its a skill that if you don't use it you lose it. |
| Joe Lalor | Sep 22 2017, 9:40am | Very comprehensive post from AT. I particularly like his "there is room for all" Contrary to BL post there is no call to ban GPSs (& mobiles). I encourage their use in tracking (and sharing) routes and would promote runners carrying them to relocate when lost but only after retiring from racing. The issue remains their use during races and rounds. |
| Brendan Lawlor | Sep 22 2017, 9:58am | 'The Wicklow Round had written into its rules that no GPS, no external navigator or pacer could be used' - that reads like a ban to me Joe ! But I think we are on the same page here - the Rule needs to be that you can have them but not use them - it will be interesting to see how that gets policed and enforced |
| Gareth Little | Sep 22 2017, 11:06am | Interesting discussion... I always found this Wicklow Round rule a bit grey. It states: "It is against the spirit of the event to have a pacing runner or navigational support." The pacing runner part is clear but the rest could be interpreted in a few ways. Most of us know that it means a map and compass only but one could argue that it is a touch vague. What is the definition on navigational support? Is navigational support using a map and compass? A watch that has an altimeter? A GPS? A phone with Google maps? A person running in front leading the way? Using car lights on a road as a point of reference? I think the rule should read something like “It is against the rules (not spirit) to use a pacing runner and any navigational aids, with the exception of a map and compass” As a wider thought, I think most events are not too clear about the rules regarding GPS’s etc. Some are obvious, IE the nav challenge but others, perhaps not so. I think the best thing IMRA can do is clearly state that navigational technology can either be used (and encouraged, as it is in the Spine race) or not. There is of course an element of trust involved for the races where it is not permitted, as I think people should still bring phones onto the hill regardless, but it’s up to them whether they want to have a cheeky look or not….. |
| Gavan Doherty | Sep 22 2017, 12:37pm | Interesting topic Joe... my tuppence worth is that there are two aspects in play 1) navigation fairness/competency and 2) safety. 1) Navigation Fairness/Competency: For the few Nav Challenge races I RDd I was explicit that GPS units were fine. This was partially to encourage anyone unsure of their skills and partially because I don't think a competent navigator with decent map can be beaten by a GPS-dependent runner. Many GPS units can tell you where you are overlaid on a map, but none will tell you what route to follow between two points. 2) Safety: In my opinion no harm in having a GPS as a backup, but not to be relied on. If you end up lost and reliant on GPS to re-orient yourself you're not likely a podium challenger? I'm still unsure about GPS functionality in the total absence of mobile coverage (not uncommon in parts of even Wicklow). The little experimentation that I've done would suggest that it works if your phone/GPS device picks up a location before going out of coverage, but I'm not sure (some of the boffins on the forum might enlighten us?). That said if you're out of coverage you won't be able to download underlying map images and there's always the risk of battery running out, phone getting wet etc etc. This possibly addresses Darragh's question regarding the Dublin Peaks (is a paper map needed or phone/GPS OK). The Race Director on the day has to be confident you won't become a liability and can navigate competently (particularly in low visibility). If your ability/experience is unknown you're not convincing with only a GPS unit (unless you can discuss the upcoming route knowledgeably). A paper map shows a degree of preparation? The kind of map you have is also of significance; the EastWest maps (paper or on GPS/ViewRanger) will show plenty of extra detail (eg pedestrian access points to the mountainside) while Google maps from a phone GPS will show you little or nothing. I prefer paper all the way but very happy to see GPS in the back pocket as a safety backup.... |
| Gareth Little | Sep 22 2017, 1:03pm | @Gavan, you can use viewranger without mobile signal. It uses the phones built in GPS. You also touched on Darragh's question too. If is was RD for a race that involved navigation and was asked the same question, I would not allow a GPS in place of a map and compass. GPS's, phones etc get dropped in water and batteries can die and then there is no back up as the runner was relying solely on the device. Asking a runner to carry a map and compass is one thing but knowing if they know how to use it is anther thing ;) |
| Peter O'Farrell | Sep 22 2017, 1:39pm | The safety aspect really does boil down to personal responsibility. At any weekend race you go too there will be people on the start line clutching a map and compass without the slightest notion of their function BUT they have fulfilled the RD's gear criteria for the race. I would nearly encourage anyone in this position to carry a GPS unit that can bring them back to the start (ideally not directly over a cliff en route) A possible answer would be to state that to be eligible for prizes you cannot use GPS aids on the course but if you unsure of your ability but wish to partake please do bring and possibly use your GPS unit/viewranger app on your phone. An an organisation we don't have entry criteria for most of our races, perhaps for the longer navigational routes there should be a basic navigational requirement to have at least taken part in a session such as the ones arranged by Paul Nolan. |
| Andrew Mendelson | Sep 22 2017, 4:32pm | You can most definitely navigate perfectly well without a mobile signal. (This never used to be the case, but is standard with newer operating systems.) In fact, switching your phone to airplane mode is a good idea to prolong battery life if you're planning a long day in the mountains. With a phone running apps like GaiaGPS, dedicated GPS units are now arguably redundant. Thus, to a large degree, the rules have been overtaken by technology. I agree with others that an explicit paragraph should be added to each race description outlining what is or isn't acceptable. |
| Alan Ayling | Sep 23 2017, 1:22pm | No difficulty with the use of any GPS device/phone/whatever being used any way it can for safety in the sense of getting off the hill when in trouble, but I fundamentally disagree with the routine use of anything that tells you your location. In contrast to Andrew M's (& others'!) point, I don't believe there should be an explicit paragraph in each race description about what's allowed and what's not in terms of nav aids. It should be strictly map and compass only for navigating except in emergencies. One of the key skills in navigation is relocation. Finding your way back to a point where you know with a high degree of certainty where you are on both the map and the ground. Something that can be fairly simple (e.g. a quick back-track to a junction) or really challenging (e.g. at night, in bad visibility, or in bad terrain or dense vegetation). A little blue dot telling you where you are has a massive influence - you either won't need to relocate or if you do it'll be very much easier. For example, control 3 in the recent Nav Challenge #3. A bend in a remote stream in a vague rolling blanket bog area between Benleagh, Camenabologue and Cannow, with the mist down. It caused varying degrees of trouble. Mike Jordan & I happened to be approaching it together from the Camenabologue angle, leaving the (somewhat indistinct) path over perhaps 400 m of indistinct, undulating and at times peat hag strewn ground. Tricky. Map, compass and pacing type stuff, hard to maintain ones intended direction and judge distance at all accurately. We both got the control, but it put our nav skills and resources to the test, especially when doubt started creeping in. If electronic devices and little blue dots had been involved, finding that control would have been basically a doddle and the top 5 placings in the race could all have been changed around. And it's not just those competing for the medals - I'm usually not. Whether you're top, middle or anywhere else in the pack you are pitting your wits and skills as well as your running ability against your competitors and the nav is part of that. The fairest way is map and compass, that's it. Altimeters, satnavs, carrying a drone to send up for a bird's-eye view... grand for the emergency and if you want to go out non-competitively to gain experience, but not fair for racing. By all means carry the stuff, do the Strava bit, but that should be it. |
| Robbie Williams | Sep 24 2017, 10:31am | Havnt done any nav challenges really, but is the possibility of not giving out maps or grid referances until the gun goes off a way of 1. not having a route GPX downloaded, 2. would mean those uploading points to GPS would lose valubale time doing so while the compass guys are gone running? 3. Have a checkpoint (more work for race director though) where new co-ordinates are given out, or new map given out and certain points. Just a thought.. |
| Jeff Swords | Sep 24 2017, 2:06pm | On some apps it takes no time to mark a location, literally just hold your finger down to mark it. Now it's not going to find the best route there for you, but you'll constantly be aware of where you are in relation to it so would make things a little easier. |
| Brian Kitson | Sep 25 2017, 2:49pm | Great discussion topic. Some suggests to build on the comments made about navigation during the Round: •Specifically, the Wicklow Round ‘rules’ should be updated to reflect the idea that map and compass is the only allowed method of navigation (if that is what is agreed). Rules regarding pacers should also be clarified. I’ve read Round reports where people have thanked their pacers. •In events where a system of honour is required, like the Round, it might be a good idea to ask runners to ‘sign off’ on their time. This would involve signing a page where their time listing the rules to confirm that they completed the round in accordance with the rules. •Phones/Watches can be carried by runners in a sealed and marked envelope or Chris Rock concert style phone bag during the race/round. This would prevent runners having a cheeky look during the event, but they still have access to the device in case of emergency (in which case they would DNF the event but would have the aid of technology to get home safely). |
