Clarification of rules
| Author | Date | Message |
|---|---|---|
| Tom Hogan | Feb 3 2019, 3:16pm | Can someone please clarify. If a runner goes off course in a race but gains no advantage from this, in fact runs much further than original distance is he automatically disqualified ( is it an IMRA rule) or is it up to the discretion of the race director. |
| Mick Hanney | Feb 3 2019, 4:54pm | Not sure if there is a set rule written down. There are precedents of people going off the route and being DSQed. Maulin race in a no. of years back I think - a bunch of runners were involved near the leading edge of the race. Whereas if someone goes wrong, figures out their issue and returns to the junction they erred at, so they still run the intended route, but more distance. In that case they can argue they ran intended route. |
| Laura Flynn | Feb 3 2019, 5:47pm | Runners must run the set course Tom. If a runner goes off course they must retrace their steps to the set course. If they do not not they are recorded as a dnf. The Race Director does not have any discretion in the matter. |
| Alan Ayling | Feb 3 2019, 6:26pm | There have been a few cases where large numbers of runners have gone wrong - Maulin was one. It proves impossible to sort out 100% so sometimes the RD has to do the best they can. The way Laura worded it is almost certainly the fairest way to handle these things, but relies on runners' honesty. And realising they actually went wrong! |
| Tom Hogan | Feb 3 2019, 6:47pm | Thanks Laura. I don’t agree but ok if you say it’s a rule and race director has no discretion in the matter, everyone will have to adhere to that. Not just for the race today but all races, no exceptions can be made therefore I’m going to highlight a pretty big result from 2018 that will need to be corrected. In the Wicklow way relay the winners had a runner go off course (he didn’t even come in to change over from right direction, but was judged to have run further) but we’re allowed continue and go on to win their third title in a row. This will now need to be taken from them because as you said the race director on the day should have DSQed them and omitted them from the results. |
| Laura Flynn | Feb 3 2019, 7:11pm | I don’t have enough information to respond to your comment on the WWR result Tom but am surprised you’re choosing to raise it now some 9 months after the event and are calling for some retrospective scrutiny . If you want to raise it formally I think it’s more appropriate you do so via the committee emails rather than on the forum and you will receive a formal reply. To go back to your original question, the rule is surely the only rule that can apply to be fair to all runners. To operate in any other way would create all sorts of difficulties. There’s no doubt people have been frustrated and disappointed in the past by its application and enforcement, and will be so in the future, but my experience in my time on the committee and in my years running the races, is that most people see the fairness of it and suck it up. |
| Tom Hogan | Feb 3 2019, 7:28pm | That’s ok Laura I’ll tell my 13 year old son to suck it up. As I said if it’s a rule it most apply to all. The reason I bring it up the WWR is because it was a big race a lot of people are very familiar with and highlights that if this is a rule it’s clearly not being upheld by all RDs. I was involved in the race last year with the team who finished 4th, not that it was our decision but we agreed if they gained no advantage they should not be DQ. But now clearly this result can no longer stand. |
| Paul Morrissey2 | Feb 3 2019, 7:46pm | While I agree that if a race has a set route, then varying from that is grounds for a DNF, I am still very confused with a) the timing of this and b) the sudden aggressiveness so far after the fact. Maybe the OP would like to explain more. Have you contacted the committee about this previously? As suggested that would be a sensible way to go (if you haven’t already!) |
| Tom Hogan | Feb 3 2019, 8:07pm | Paul as I just said the WWRis being used as an example of the fact that this is a) either not an imra rule b) if it is indeed a written rule it’s not being enforced by all My son ran a junior race today running much further than the race distance but yet still was first junior home but an official sent down from imra deceided to DQ him from race even though RD thought differently. So there is no sudden aggressiveness as you say but rather massive frustration that either people are making up rules as they see fit or just choosing to ignore them in the case of my example. I couldn’t care less about result of the WWR but it can’t be one rule for some and another for others. |
| Eoin Keith | Feb 3 2019, 8:22pm | Tom, IMRA does not "Send down officials". Everyone who helps organise IMRA races is a volunteer who is giving their free time to ensure that races happen. That includes everyone on every IMRA committee. |
| Jarlath Hynes | Feb 3 2019, 8:24pm | 'official sent down from IMRA' a bit harsh?? 'a volunteer who travelled down to help develop the SEL' maybe? |
| Jarlath Hynes | Feb 3 2019, 8:25pm | . |
| Brendan Lawlor | Feb 3 2019, 8:50pm | For marked IMRA races runners have to run the marked course. If they deviate , realise they have and then return to where they went wrong and continue on then there’s no issue. The problem arises when someone goes wrong , adding distance and time to their run and then rejoins the marked course having skipped some of the marked route. This is a DNF situation as the runner hasn’t run the official marked course. It does of course depend on a runner declaring this at the finish and this may or may not happen. The WW Relay is a bit different as the course is not marked in the traditional IMRA sense. This race has a very long history of runners getting lost but as it’s an A to B race there is almost never an advantage to be gained by missing a junction or taking a wrong turn. So the comparison isn’t really fair in that case |
| Tom Hogan | Feb 3 2019, 8:56pm | Eoin and Jarlath if you want to insert yourself into the topic please give your opinion on the actual issue which is if this is a rule or not. Instead the last 3 posts have tried to move the issue into something else that’s it’s not. For me it’s this simple if this is indeed a rule. Past results may need to be changed. If it is not My sons result should stand. |
| Eoin Keith | Feb 3 2019, 9:06pm | Sorry Tom, I won't jump to your orders. This is an open discussion forum. You do not get to dictate what people can and can't discuss. I would suggest though that if you want to keep discussion tightly focused that you endevour to do so in you own posts. |
| Brendan Lawlor | Feb 3 2019, 9:12pm | Tom, did your son run the full marked course today? |
| Bill Barry | Feb 3 2019, 9:18pm | I was at the race today. The junior athlete ran way longer distance than the junior route and still came in first. He is clearly the junior winner. We are trying to promote this sport and encourage more people to get involved, especially the younger generations. But this does nothing but frustrate and discourage people from getting involved in the sport. Especially the way it was handled today. The Race Director and his team were very understanding of the situation and if they had been left to do their roles, this would have been dealt with in a sensible manner. However, the lady who traveled to volunteer and help promote the SEL dealt with this in an authoritarian and frankly rude manner. I also witnessed her being condescending and rude to two other newbies. This is not, in my humble opinion, the way to promote this sport. And is wholly discouraging to those newbies who are just learning the ropes. And the junior athletes being done out of a win by an over zealous and extremely rude “rule” follower. |
| Bill Barry | Feb 3 2019, 9:19pm | . |
| Bill Barry | Feb 3 2019, 9:20pm | . |
| Tom Hogan | Feb 3 2019, 9:30pm | I honestly don’t know Brendan he was running with the first couple of men and followed some of them. They took wrong turn ran off course and then rejoined somewhere not being familiar with the course I don’t know what they missed. All I know for sure is that they ran further than the junior course. |
| Richard Nunan | Feb 3 2019, 9:39pm | Hi Tom, Just some clarifications for you. I believe you had 2 juniors running today. 1 ran the Junior course correctly the 2nd didnt and was DNF'ed (Both your son's I think) The other 2 Seniors were also DNF'd. Those are the rules and are the rules for any race. IMRA committee will do all in its control to make sure that these are followed. We will add this to the beginners section so that people are clear on this. As Laura has highlighted, we will look at last years WW Relay. We know that the team are already planning this years race and are taking steps in making sure any issues that occurred last will not occur again. We are trying to continuously improve our races and support the new SEL on an ongoing basis so please bear with us. If you want to appeal or have an issue with the result Please contact the record sec - he was there today helping with the Laptop. We can them look at this at a committee level. Thanks and apologies for any frustration with todays events. |
| Brendan Lawlor | Feb 3 2019, 9:51pm | Thanks Tom, I can understand your annoyance and frustration but please don’t you or your talented son be discouraged by today Beidh la eile |
| Tom Hogan | Feb 3 2019, 9:58pm | Thanks Richard. I look forward to seeing what happens with the WWR so. And would like to be kept updated on what happens with it please because as I’ve said i don’t mind if it’s a rule but it must apply to all. You owe it to a 13 year old who I’m trying to get into this sport, to now apply this rule across the board including to races which have already occurred. |
| Richard Nunan | Feb 3 2019, 10:10pm | Hi Tom, We have RD Training over the coming weeks - so we have a good opportunity to make sure that all RD's in 2019 are consistent. I have added your clarification on the Wickow Way relay to our next committee meeting. This will happen before the end of February and i will revert back to you then. We will hopefully see you and your family again soon on the hills. |
| Alan Ayling | Feb 3 2019, 10:23pm | Not trying to create trouble here, but I can't find it in the rules where the bit about going off course is a DQ/DNF... at least not in the rules on the "Constitution" link at the bottom of the IMRA homepage. Presumably these are the official rules? Interestingly, there is Rule 14, which affords the RD a certain amount of discretion. As an indirect fallout from all this, perhaps the committee could take on board to have these matters clearly stated in the official Rules. And heightened general awareness of the Rules may be no bad thing. Lots of really good stuff in there. |
| Richard Nunan | Feb 3 2019, 10:41pm | Hi Alan, Yes, that's the plan. There are a number of Policys and rules that we are working through at the moment that need to be updated and included. Alot of which should be completed by end of Feb. |
| Peter O'Farrell | Feb 4 2019, 1:29pm | To answer Tom's original question - Yes a Race Director has discretion. To take that discretion away would fundamentally change how we operate and would be unfortunate. In my opinion either letting a person count in the results OR disqualifying a person are both justifiable decisions that a RD could make on the day and I for one would be disappointed to see that discretion tied down by more regulations and polices. The decision didn't go Tom's way and he is understandably upset but there isn't a need (in my opinion) to go over the top with reams of written procedures in reaction to that single decision. Slightly Off Topic : The WWR is an excellent example of both race directors and individual leg end volunteers exercising discretion. Sometimes I agree with it and sometimes I disagree with it but in all cases you have to allow that the volunteer was acting in what they believed was/is the right way. In the very same 2018 WWR race I could have disqualified a team for a breach of the rules on leg 1. I didn't and the other 7 runners had a great day out without affecting the results. Volunteers need discretion. |
| John Murray | Feb 4 2019, 2:17pm | Everybody breath in.... :) As a newbie with only 1yr of racing under my belt I feel Tom's forum post title is what should be the main topic of discussion..'Clarification of Rule'. I for one would like clarification on what I should be doing if I stray off a 'marked' course to avoid DQ as best possible. I do think the way Tom angled his question could of been better and got straight to the facts of yesterdays race decision rather than aim at a result from last year but I'll put that down to a competitive fathers frustration. Hell I'd say there are plenty of races he could finger point at over the years.lol I agree having too many rules & regulations takes away from the community spirit but I think a basic rule for something like this situation would be considered a fundamental basic and at present there is a bit of a grey area in terms of what the rule is and RD's position. Glad to see the Committee are taking steps on updating old rules and items as the years progress. It's only when a problem rears it's head can we address and find a solution. As for going back over all old races and changing results...that is all futile in my opinion and creating more workload for a handful of people who already volunteer many hours of their free time as it is. I think what should be taken from this post is that there is a grey area and misconception around a rule which simply needs to be clarified. And exhale everyone... :) Ps: having seen the video posted prior to the race on FB highlighting all the routes, twists, turns, single trails etc. etc. I'm surprised half the field didn't end up missing in action!lol |
| patrick Rowe | Feb 4 2019, 3:07pm | Hello everyone very interesting discussion here, i was race director at yesterday's sel imra race,its my first time RD ing role (imra) and the race went 100% to plan other than the subject of this discussion i will stand by my belief that if adult or child doesnt run the total marked course whatever the finish distance it sould be automatic dnf ,i believe the same at any level of competition but i 100% agree that it should be across the board rule in writing ,toms son is an amazing future talent and would hate for anyone to be discouraged by an episode like this |
| Barry Minnock | Feb 4 2019, 5:54pm | Love these juicy debates :) Haven't been on the forum for a while, so good to see the passion coming out in posts. Would concur with Peter in terms of this being at RD discretion and avoiding putting too many rules in place. I'm not aware of a specific rule on this topic. I've been part of several races where runners have gone off course & I have been a frequent culprit :) This typically sorts itself out as a mistake is typically a longer route and a disadvantage if anything. If this is clearly the case not disputed by anyone, then for me the result should stand. If a runner gains an advantage, I would expect that being part of this community would mean that any runner would either go back to point of mistake or DQ themselves at the finish line. Course design is important here. There should be clear waypoints to reach (e.g. peak, turning point) and route should typically be quickest way between waypoints. Another reason why I'm against the messy routes (e.g. Howth route changes :) as easy make a route mistake that leads to advantage ... |
| Barry Minnock | Feb 4 2019, 6:08pm | The more I think about this, there is no such thing as an exact route in hill running. For me it is about hitting waypoints. To put a rule in that force runners back to the point of mistake would be a farce ... I can imagine the debates post races - you went 20m off route and should be DQ'd :) That said, if I was RD for WWR where a top-5 team came from a different direction I would seriously consider a DQ. Purely because WWR is a very defined route. In recent scenario Tom has explained, as RD I would ask top-3 competitors in race for their opinion, leaning towards allowing result stand unless there was a genuine complaint/dispute. |
| Rory Leadbetter | Feb 4 2019, 8:13pm | Tom and his whole Family are great runners and weather they realize it or not, great ambassadors for the IMRA and I 100% understand his frustration. Id like to see RDs given full discretion here and encouraged to be lenient especially on Newbies and Juniors. I had never been made aware of this rule and Being a newbie I went off course once or twice myself last year (always adding to the total race distance and always loosing places) and never declared it. That said I understand the need for Rules so that these events don’t descend into farce. And I know the volunteers (which I can’t yet count myself amongst to my shame) are doing their upmost to be fair to all, But I would urge the people making the decisions not to add more rules to a sport that is brilliant just the way it is. I used to enjoy the odd round of Golf but I’ve often witnessed people loosing Points/holes on technicalities. That’s not what we want here. In the interest of full disclosure I’d like to be DQed from last years Brandon Hill, Slievenamon and Castlecomer races ;-) |
| Owen Fenton | Feb 4 2019, 10:39pm | Hello All - I was one of the seniors at the front who went wrong. I was with first and second but my shoe came off and by the time I had it back on the group behind me swallowed me up. Now in our small group were 3 senior runners and one junior runner. That young man is a real talent and made me feel very old. We missed a left turn that would have taken us on a lovely loop. I ran the course a few weeks previous so I realise we made a simple mistake. But we were all flying and it happened so quickly - in the race fever my orientation must have vanished. We then ran straight on basically now in the wrong direction - about 1km on we paused and collectively realized we had gone wrong - one senior decided to call it a day and headed back. That left two seniors and a junior. We tried to correct ourselves but didn’t find our way and ended up going down a hill with others coming up (we realized again we were going in the wrong direction). We therefore turned around and ran the last 2 km in the correct direction following the markers correctly to the finish. We therefore missed about 1/3 of the actual course. We made up the km basically by running an out and back. The exact route we ran is on my Strava and it was 6.6 km. I crossed the line and declared immediately I had gone wrong and proceeded to the coffee and buns. So there you go. And all of that happened in 35 minutes. |
| Miriam Maher | Feb 4 2019, 10:55pm | I have probably followed this thread the closest of any in a long time. I wasn't there at the race, so I'm not assuming I have all the facts. In any case, I'm pretty sure the committee will take all the issues raised and views given on board. But I would like to applaud Tom's son. Any teenager that's prepared to come along and give hill running a go is to be nurtured and encouraged all the way. His great running yesterday (Owen's update makes that clear - he ran fast and long) may have been a bit overlooked in all the discussions about applicable rules and that would be a great pity. I am biased on this subject admittedly. The junior course option has been one of the best aspects of the IMRA race set up for myself because of what it has offered my own son over the past five years. But loads more races on the calendar and I hope that Tom's son is one of many juniors coming along and taking part! |
| John Durrad | Feb 4 2019, 11:41pm | Hear hear on all the positive feedback on this subject. Tom’s lad sounds like a future champion in the making. He’ll learn from these sort of situations, the rough and the smooth as they say. Builds character being able to handle small disappointments like these and makes you more determined the next race. |
| Tom Hogan | Feb 5 2019, 9:08am | Thanks for everyone’s kind words about Jay. There have been some great points by some very experienced and good runners. Hopefully they’ll be taking on board now and RDs and other officials will be given some discretion at races. Nobody is going to have all the answers but through discussion such as this we can continue to tweak and shape things within IMRA for the benefit of all. |
| Barry Murray | Feb 5 2019, 7:50pm | Maulin was all John Bells fault, just sayin. |
| Peter Bell | Feb 5 2019, 9:42pm | I would have to agree with Barry on this one, hopefully whoever is marking Maulin this year does a good job. ;) |
| Warren Swords | Feb 5 2019, 10:46pm | I’ll happily mark the Maulin short course Peter. I know it well. |
| Mikey Fry | Feb 6 2019, 11:40am | only fair warren Barry I help mark short coarse with you:)) |
| Brendan Lawlor | Feb 6 2019, 11:49am | Confession is good for the soul lads ! |
